Celestines/Nihilists and the Gods

Alseid

So I'm having a little trouble with my character due to two things, one being that he's an Illithoid and pretty much entirely alien to how the world and other races work, and two because I'm not really sure how to fit the actual divinity into his Nihilist thinking. He's a complete zealot when it comes to the Demon Lords and can't really fathom believing in or following a God, so I'm wondering specifically how other players of Nihilists and Celestines fit in this roleplay of the the Gods when you already have things you follow.

Krackenor

There is only one God worth worshiping, and that is the Empress of Emptiness. All others are means to an end, tools for Her empowerment, 

Xenthos

As a note, RPwise the Demon Lords are larval Gods. If the Song was still going they would have eventually grown up. Following the Demon Lords is not inherently antithetical to following a God, and the two can even complement each other (depending on the Order in question). I know that there have been plenty of high-profile Nihilists who have done so. Is it right for your character? Only you can say. But there is not a built-in gulf between these guilds and the Divine.

Sylandra

Demon Lords are like teenage gods who never grew up into adult gods. Same with Supernals. I know Celest gods had instances of feeling paternal or maternal towards the Supernals; unsure about how the Magnagoran Divine consider the DLs.

Unrelated to everything else, Order RP is some of the most fun I've ever had in Lusternia so don't knock it till you've tried it.

Twytch

Regarding your first problem (being an illithoid), you have to keep in mind that, despite their vast differences, both the Soulless and Elder Gods were created by Dynara. I feel like this fact is often obscured behind the whole Soulless vs Elders thing, wherein the Soulless are highlighted more as being Heralds of Magnora rather than the first children of Dynara.

Androctasia

Different people resolve the dilemma different ways. A few things worth thinking about (you may or may not already know some of this):

- The Demon Lords are what the Elders called "half-formed." All Elders were born/created from the energies of a cosmic creche and then eventually matured to the point that they were no longer bound to that cosmic plane. The Demon Lords (or rather, Emanations) were developped, but not matured enough to leave the plane. Of course, they've now had millenia to bond and harmonise with the energies of Nil, and they've been tainted, so what they are in relation to the Elders is open to (some) interpretation, as well as there being layers of tradition to their worship before the Elders came back from the Void. (Incidentally, Continuum is a "dead" creche, its products having grown into big Elders including Xyl, Jadice and, I think, Crys while Vortex is a creche that is pre-half-formed manifestations). So there are some people who view Mag's Elders as being more encompassing than the Demon Lords, and there are others who view the Demon Lords as supreme, since they're so tied to the plane of Nil and Magnagora itself.

- Some of Mag's gods may view themselves as having had a role in shaping who the Emanations were back in the beginning, although I don't remember particular examples of logs/lore of this attitude to point to off the top of my head.

- When you zealously follow the Demon Lords, it's worth noting that they have somewhat different (and potentially conflicting when carried to extremes) teachings. In addition to viewing the Supreme Master as the pinnacle of Nihilism, some characters find it useful to worship a tainted Elder to help round out the Demon Lords teachings. Alternatively, some people see their worship of one of the Elders as a way to more fully embrace some of the teachings of the Demon Lords (there were quite a few Raezonites in the Cult of Baalphegar at one point, for example)

- There are multiple axes of conflict in Lusternia, and the Demon Lords are going to be less diametrically opposed to, say, Lisaeran, Jadicean, or Darvellant plots. Supporting an Elder against those fools who named them Traitor is a reasonable step, and if it ever comes into conflict with your worship of the demon lords, that's a bridge you can cross when you come to it.


You could probably ask a question like this ic as well, of several different people, and get some interesting answers.

Hallen

I'm not totally sure how this could work out, but maybe you could adopt certain ideological codes or moral beliefs into which you could fit a wider illithoid RP, worship of the Demon Lords, and of the Gods in the Magnagoran pantheon all at once. All hail the excoroperditio force?

Azula

If there is anything I can discern/learned from Nihilists is that the common denominator is embracing "forbidden/taboo" practices in pursuit of greater Power.

The Demon Lords teaches you to embrace various tenets, promising there is great Power in embracing Pain, Wrath, Lies, Gluttony and in Domination. So as a Nihilist you embrace these various practices in pursuit of more power. The DLs provide you with the path or tools.

As an extension, of pursuing more power, there are lots of Divine in Magnagora, who either promise more power, or respect this same thirst for power. (Don't think most of the traitors betrayed Their kin just because they felt like it or for cookies.)

This same drive for power can be shared or traced to your roots as an Illithoid, who collectively I think seek the revival or glorification of Illith. Though not everyone are really required to express doing so.

Othero

I think there are two things to keep in mind, first that the DL and Divine have different teachings and a lot of the DL teachings overlap with the Mag pantheon. Fain and Ashtorath both love rage, Drocilla and Baalphegar both love subtelty, Drocilla and Nifilhema are both into beauty as a representation of strength,  and Morgfyre and Gorgulu both love Old Country Buffet. The DL teachings are also a good guide for the day to day while the divine usually have teachings based around higher concepts or a more narrow focus. That lets you balance the two in your play style and keep you from feeling like you're cheating on one of them.

The other thing, and this is more personal RP, is that we're Nihilists. And Nihilists, just like the elustrious Guerrero family, lie, cheat, and steal. If you talk to Othero he's as much of a zealot as the rest of them. He gets down and prays to the Demon Lords whenever he can. He brings them followers and damns as many souls as possible. He does it because if he brings them enough he can perform literal miracles. It's a give and take, he knows the DL need him and they'd be screwed if the Nihilists suddenly told the city to turn their backs on them. They would lose out on those souls and worship that they need. He'd also lose all of his cool tricks so he's not going to do that. It's less about faith and more about being a really good deal for everyone involved. But he's telling everyone that he's faithful and they all need to believe.

It can be the same with the Divine too. I've started playing in Drocilla's order and my interactions with Drocilla are 90% Othero being faithful and bowing to Drocilla and respecting her for her power. But the two of them are also circling around each other trying to find what they can squeeze out of the other one. She plans on controlling Creation, how do I get that seat next to her?

Othero

The other thing to keep in mind is that faith in Lusternia is not like real world faith. I don't need to have faith that the Demon Lords exist and that they are powerful creatures. They are tangible and have crushed me like a bug lots of times. What I do need to have faith in is that they will protect me and take care of me in exchange of my service. There's nothing about the DL and the Divine that counter each other out or make it so that if you have faith in one you can't have faith in another.

Kalnid

Ask this in game. Get discussion going. It's an old nihilist question.

Delphas

Your character is not at all required to obey any of the Divine.  Study why the Demon Lords are called ``half formed'' (or did people stop doing that when I stopped being the GA?) and you'll see it's all cool.  Completely ignore the Divine if you like, or throw yourself into them whole-hog.  The two are completely orthogonal.  Just bear in mind that since the Divine have a soul, they can make certain in-game changes for us, hence the need for a Patron and Envoy.

Shaddus

Just make sure you understand that you cannot be an "atheist", because gods ingame surely exist. It's a bit rude to tell someone that you don't believe they exist, especially when they can slaughter you wholesale.

Tarkenton

Read Small Gods. It's entirely possible to do so.

Alseid

Shaddus said:

Just make sure you understand that you cannot be an "atheist", because gods ingame surely exist. It's a bit rude to tell someone that you don't believe they exist, especially when they can slaughter you wholesale.

Alseid hasn't ever seen one, and he's never heard of them, so trust me, right now, it's entirely possible to be like, "Yeah, whatever."

Moi

Alseid said:

Shaddus said:

Just make sure you understand that you cannot be an "atheist", because gods ingame surely exist. It's a bit rude to tell someone that you don't believe they exist, especially when they can slaughter you wholesale.

Alseid hasn't ever seen one, and he's never heard of them, so trust me, right now, it's entirely possible to be like, "Yeah, whatever."

Well, expect to see a bunch soonish. The ascension's coming.