The dreaded Family Seat

Saran

So with the overhaul coming up, thoughts about the family seat are popping up too. Should it be deleted with extreme prejudice? Should it stay? Should it change?

Thematically, I like the idea of a different method for getting onto the council though the family seat isn't the greatest right now. I also prefer the idea of an odd number of council members personally so having the extra seat once factions turn up would also be good.

I suppose my suggestion would be to keep the seat, but rather than it being the highest ranked family, families pledged to the org would instead have the ability to "family support <family>". This would throw the honour of that family behind the other family, each year this number would be tallied up and the family with the highest combined honour would gain the seat for the next year.

This creates a requirement for families to deal with each other, building relationships with each other or deals so that they can keep the seat. A family that selects a representative that their supporters are unhappy with for whatever reason could find that they lose the seat at the new year, while a representative that does a decent job could in theory stick around for a long time.

Talan

No, because it's too tumultuous, and too tenuous, and the possibility for betrayal/in-fighting is too huge for drama queens and kings to resist.

The system you're suggesting basically puts the family rep in a constant state of flux. The family rep would either be on the chopping block, or be a lame duck 100% of the time. That is not conducive to getting work done, and it marginalizes the council seat itself. It is hard to make plans that involve someone who could be gone at any moment.

You might see the chance for families to work together, I see the chance for families to conspire to stab each other in the back. That's not good for morale. Cous d'etat might be fun in theory, but they're rarely executed by those who want to work hard to serve the populace. Those people tend to do things out in the open, over time. Your system does allow for that, but equally it also allows for 11th hour secret fuckery, and there's more than enough of that in the family system as-is. It also creates situations where you're asking people to vote against whole-families if they do not like one individual member. Further, it diminishes the power of being the most honorable family in an org, which is not really fair considering that most honor is gained in direct service to the org..

Council seats should be relatively stable with ample warning that a change is coming. The current system allows for that.

Falaeron

I still think we need 2 generally elected council seats

Talan

I'm not opposed to adding more direct representative seats, or even to adding a divine rep ... but I'd kind of like to see how things work in practice before we go re-adding positions when a large point of the org-overhaul is to eliminate excess positions.

Hallen

By divine rep do you mean someone from an Order? Because that's a cool idea.

Sylandra

Hallen said:

By divine rep do you mean someone from an Order? Because that's a cool idea.

Could be the OH of the city patron?

Falaeron

I don't think a Divine rep is a good idea. Divine try to stay out of mortal affairs for various reasons and having a rep with power on a city's council will ultimately lead to the issues they're trying to avoid by letting mortals do their own thing for the most part. If a Divine wanted to speak they are already doing it and I don't see any reason why they'd stop doing it under a new system even without official representation on the council.

Thul

I haven't been part of an order for longer than about two days (keep catching order-shattering events) but wouldn't an inactive god mean that someone's got a council seat, and there is about nothing you can do to get rid of that person?

Cyndarin

That's when you call the Goon Squad.

Shuyin

A divine rep makes more sense than a family rep IMO. At least divines are already pretty much linked to a city due to the affinity system. The family head gets a seat Just Because.

Kalnid

I thought people wanted to kill off affinity?

Shuyin

TBH I feel like the greater (forum) population should take the hint about the affinity system when nothing has happened after the 34789537957489578935793 complaints about it over the years.

(I agree with the affinity system because it supports one of Lusternia's core foundations - picking a side and sticking to it. The power system supports this as well.)

Phoebus

Shuyin said:

TBH I feel like the greater (forum) population should take the hint about the affinity when nothing has happened after the 34789537957489578935793 complaints about it over the years.

I feel that this is a poor attitude to have when it comes to changes people wish to see. If people have concerns that a mechanic is doing more harm than good, it's perfectly reasonable to voice them, and occasionally ask "do things still have to be this way?" Other things have definitely changed due to player concerns after years of being cemented in place. 

Of course, you have to know when to give it a rest, and there's certainly a difference between voicing one's concerns and simply whining about it. But I don't believe that the more recent rumblings regarding affinity have been anything but reasonable.

Shuyin

I don't agree that the affinity system is doing more harm than good other than the fact that it halves the offerings for a system that is entirely optional.

Being a level 100 forum warrior, I've noticed that the last few Serious complaints about affinity were from special snowflakes who want to join X god while living in Y city and then being upset when they find out that trying to have your cake and eat it has some extra difficulties.

Lavinya

Shuyin said:

I don't agree that the affinity system is doing more harm than good other than the fact that it halves the offerings for a system that is entirely optional.

Being a level 100 forum warrior, I've noticed that the last few Serious complaints about affinity were from special snowflakes who want to join X god while living in Y city and then being upset when they find out that trying to have your cake and eat it has some extra difficulties.

I resent that

I am ok with the affinity drain, I didn't realise it also halves offerings which is a huge pain in the ass when combined with said drain. I've screwed myself out of about 60mil inofferings so far! That's a lot of work when you don't buy esteem!

Falaeron

Maybe that's a sign that you know... affinity is working as intended?

Nienla

Shuyin said:

TBH I feel like the greater (forum) population should take the hint about the affinity system when nothing has happened after the 34789537957489578935793 complaints about it over the years.

(I agree with the affinity system because it supports one of Lusternia's core foundations - picking a side and sticking to it. The power system supports this as well.)

Pretty sure people complained about Choke just as much, if not more. Something still happened about it in the end.

While I like the idea of picking a side and sticking to it, the affinity system and the power system aren't really comparable. The power system pretty much outright prevents you from utilizing the most powerful aspects of a class so you can't, say, take Inquisition over to Serenwilde or take Bonds over to Magnagora. The reason for that is because it creates a balance issue.

The affinity system still allows people to be a part of those Orders. It just adds a large essence drain, among other penalties, but doesn't outright prohibit. If Fain really wanted his people to take over another organization, his Order could still do it. This system didn't really change/fix what it was supposed to. Not to mention, with the amount of Gods that we have, artificially limiting them to one organization only just creates a low population disparity. Conveniently, we're trying to fix those with guilds right now.

Phoebus

Shuyin said:

I don't agree that the affinity system is doing more harm than good other than the fact that it halves the offerings for a system that is entirely optional.

Being a level 100 forum warrior, I've noticed that the last few Serious complaints about affinity were from special snowflakes who want to join X god while living in Y city and then being upset when they find out that trying to have your cake and eat it has some extra difficulties.

I am rather firmly in place as a follower of the most Hallifaxy of Hallifaxian Gods, have no characters in orders outside of their home orgs, and I still think affinity needs to be looked at. The offering hit makes no sense when you consider the fact that people who are not members of the order, but are still from outside orgs, suffer no penalty.

This is getting a little off topic though! If you want to keep talking about this, we could take it somewhere else? Sorry for the derail, @Saran. 

Lavinya

I don't think it's fair when I left an org for largely ooc reasons so I can still enjoy the game that I should also have to give up the one thing I still had going for me. I suck it up and I do the work (and still out offer everyone else) but that doesn't mean it's not overly harsh. 

Cyndarin

Night's Law: As a forums discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison to choke approaches 1

Shuyin

It is definitely comparable since the affinity system penalizes people who take their religious system over to another city, just like how the power system penalizes people who take their skills to another city. 

It doesn't invalidate the relationship just because affinity doesn't outright prevent joining another order.

I mean, I am pretty down for Affinity Thread Number 2232423445435345345, but I really just wanted to talk about council reps in this thread, in fact, I didn't even start the digression!

P.S. I am down for killing off some gods like we have guilds, @Ieptix first.

P.P.S. If I didn't spell it out, I'm down with re-examining specific mechanics behind affinity, but I still largely agree with the idea of the system.

Nienla

Celina said:

Night's Law: As a forums discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison to choke approaches 1

Choke is literally Hitler.

I've invoked both Night's Law and Godwin's Law. Is the world going to end?

Lavinya

Anyway sorry, way off topic.

Falaeron

I dunno, I think what Shuyin said about picking a side and sticking with it is very much something that a lot of you seem to be ignoring, or wanting to ignore. Take a look at rogues and how difficult it is to (mechanically) play as one. That is evidently a conscious design decision to keep people tied to their orgs. Divine Orders are very much part of the identity of an org as well. Sure, it sucks if you've invested a lot of time, energy and emotion into an Order but that's like saying someone should be allowed to maintain membership in a guild they've invested so much in while joining another city.

To be honest I think the fact that you can join an Order of a God who is aligned with another org is already very generous considering how strictly tied to orgs everything else is. There are just (harsh) penalties that come along with it.

Nienla

Falmiis said:

I dunno, I think what Shuyin said about picking a side and sticking with it is very much something that a lot of you seem to be ignoring, or wanting to ignore. Take a look at rogues and how difficult it is to (mechanically) play as one. That is evidently a conscious design decision to keep people tied to their orgs. Divine Orders are very much part of the identity of an org as well. Sure, it sucks if you've invested a lot of time, energy and emotion into an Order but that's like saying someone should be allowed to maintain membership in a guild they've invested so much in while joining another city.

To be honest I think the fact that you can join an Order of a God who is aligned with another org is already very generous considering how strictly tied to orgs everything else is. There are just (harsh) penalties that come along with it.

My argument is that Affinity didn't really solve what it was made to solve. If you want to ban people from joining outside Orders, just do it outright like we do with everything else. What Fain's Order tried to do wasn't even a big deal.

Edit: Anyway. Enough de-railing on my end.

Yes. Family rep is dumb. Let's get rid of it, please. I'm good with two generally elected representatives.

Daraius

Can we please come up with some other point to accumulate honor then?

Everiine

In some places, we practically already have divine reps .

IC, Ev will always hate the idea of a family seat on the ruling council. But with 3 faction leaders and a CL, a fith tie-breaking seat would be awesome. So it might as well be a family seat.

Shuyin

I got you man, make family honour the currency used for the 1v1 duels Blaeke requested for in tweets. 

Family reps can challenge other reps to duel and the ones with the most honour can get INSERT SOMETHING COOL HERE (maybe a statue of the decennial champion in the fulcruxes at the mountain because my other idea of killing off gods has also come to pass, thereby freeing up space down there).

You're welcome Lusternia, I can solve all problems.

Cyndarin

Affinity encourages a fundamental game tenet, that you're not supposed to cross the streams. The foundational concept of Lusternia's conflict system is that each org is its own entity and you cannot sit on the fence. 

If anything, the affinity system isn't harsh enough. If it didn't solve what it intended to solve, it should be pushed further, not wound back.

As for family reps, I've never understood why they exist. In some orgs, such as Magnagora, they make sense. In others, such as Glomdoring, I struggle to make sense of a forced mechanic where the "we are all equal among the Wyrd" org cares more about Nightshades or Ysav'rais than Shee Slaughs and Stormcrows. 

I'd like to see a variety of leadership styles among the orgs. Hallifax rules by council consensus (or majority vote) with no true head, Magnagora has a mix of faction and noble family leaders. The one major flaw of the current system that I've never been keen on is all guilds/orgs operating identically. Possibly out of some degree of necessity, but I'd like to see it branch out and become more dynamic. 

Zvoltz

I don't really forsee Affinity going anywhere. Some admin like it (or at least feel it is necessary) and some admin hate it with a passion. So far we haven't really been able to come to a consensus on what should be done with it, and its been that way since I became an admin. I wouldn't hold my breath on something being done with it either way.

That being said, let's stay on topic!

Everiine

I think the problem with affinity was that we went years and years without out, and some gods who were less politically ideological seemed to encourage drawing followers from different places as long as they believed in the tenets of the god. Then affinity just appeared out of nowhere to one day to solve a problem that for years nobody knew was a problem because gods rarely brought it up.

As I'm not in a divine order, I couldn't care either way . But for those who were really attached to their gods while living in a different org, it came as quite a shock.