Newbie Gold

Davos

I'm going to throw this out there, I've noticed a problem in the Lusternian economy as it applies to newbies and those entering the game. We all know credit prices are going higher and higher due to the influx of gold into the game, however, this also impacts inflation in other consumables from herbs and elixirs to scrolls. All of these things are required by most guilds at a low level, and that requirement is a function of their necessity.

However, as inflation drives up the price of a lot of things, the gold earning potential of the very low level has remained static. For the very experienced, there are a lot of ways to earn gold, but at lower levels (particularly in the 30-60 range) gold earning is very very slow and it can take an hour to earn enough for just a couple of cures.

I personally have two ideas to address this issue. The first option is to rework the gold formula so that if a mob's level is lower than a certain threshold, it drops 1.5x gold or something along those lines.However, I do have small concerns that this might make farming many lower level things appealing to higher level people. That brings me to solution

A passive gold aura on everyone. This would essentially function like having eaten the gold gaining cookies, but in inverse in relation to level. The lower level you are, the higher your gold gain from a specific mob. Perhaps this gold gain should tier out at about level 80 so it no longer provides any benefit?

I am in no way married to the idea of either of these solutions but in having tested and viewed the experience of others, I do believe this is a real problem for the lower level players in the game.

Aeldra

I am not sure if anything such as that would be a good idea. Yes, the gold drops are low, but I think it's also to discourage higher tier chars to hunt down the low tier areas. As such, I think the idea of such a gold aura is not the worst, but it also forces you to relearn your gold earning ways once you hit 70/80 instead of allowing you to discover new ones through exploration.

I think what may be an alternative is to kind of allow organisations / guilds to build up a standartised way to support newbies through goods ? Like, I know a few guilds have a sort of 'welcome package' for newbies, that members build for them from available resources. Maybe something like that could be easily pulled out so people have an easier way doing so, removing much of the initial gold consumption.

Tarkenton

Honestly, what's to stop people from warcrying to keep aggro on themselves while having newbies kill things? First exploit I can think of. Load the newbie up on gold cookies, maybe even try a poteen, then go warcrying with your noob. Toss them your whip while you tank, super profit.

Davos

@aeldra

I think a standard welcome package system would be nice to have implemented. We've tried that as well but have so few novices we have decay issues. I asked our patron if it was possible to have something where we give them to our tutor and he hands them out to newbies, but that was a no go.

I don't really know what's possible in that regard but I think it'd help a lot especially considering the amount of resources that are just sitting around not helping novices due to mechanical constraints.

Enyalida

It makes no sense to have an effect that just shuts off at level 80. It should gradually drop off as you level into new (more lucrative) areas. This could easily be mentioned in the intro, something to the effect of: "Oho, you've got what we call the "Novice's Luck". With all that luck, you'll probably find a lot more gold. Be careful though, Novice's Luck doesn't last forever. As you gain practice, you'll be less and less lucky, better explore to find some places to get gold before it wears out all the way!"

I really like the idea of an inverse tiered gold aura, especially if it could be managed to function on quest turn ins and rewards as well. As a Newbie, you generate sufficient gold by doing regular bashing, through the collegium quests, and from other novice activities, but as you continue to level you have to transition into figuring out optimal ways to generate gold on your own.

If we had some statistics on how much gold in generated relative to mob level over time, we could gather some info on what level it is appropriate for a novice to tackle gold generation areas (And at what speed), and use those together to optimize gold generation. 

@Tarkenton that sounds like an exceedingly inefficient waste of energy, tbh. Part of the issue is that high level people have too much gold already, why would they bother with a gambit like that? Just make it so that everyone in a squad/room benefits from the lowest luck effect in that squad room. Tada, fixed. That way, novices and other lower level characters can team up and still benefit from increased gold, but any combination that involves high level characters negates the increased gold. 

Tremula

Tremula said:

Pack of the Youngling - 1 cr (one time purchase)

100 sips of health, mana, bromides, fire, frost, and regeneration, lucidity slush, restorative ice, and liniment

20 of: arnica, calamus, chervil, coltsfoot, purity dust, earwort, faeleaf, galingale, horehound, kafe, kombu, marjoram, myrtle, pennyroyal, reishi, sparkleberry, steam, wormwood, and yarrow. (can later be replaced with just the new cures, if we migrate to them completely)

Basic robes

Leather armour

Shiny red backpack to store things in

Would be nice to have something that someone new (or even an alt) can bash to earn and feel accomplished, as well as help them towards guild exams and survivability. One credit for one time purchase keeps people from abusing it, and also teaches newbies about artefacts and credit purchases, while keeping the appropriate tradeskills relevant by limiting it to once per character.

Lavinya

Credits and perhaps sparkleberry are more expensive, but looking through the shops, almost everything is a lot cheaper than it used to be. Remember when powerstones were upward of 1000gold each? And cut gems anywhere up to 30 each? Go look in the plex and compare. There's more competition, prices have dropped accordingly. Herbs and potions are cheaper than ever before.

Rather than encourage a further glut to gold collecting, I still think we need more gold sinks that are attractive to older, established players, and a way to lower the credit market. Other than that, cures are dirt cheap now compared to what they were.

Tremula

Not a fix-all solution, but to address the 'starting out' issue, I've had this idea out for a while now. I believe gold drops should be played with, because bandages don't fix bullet holes.

Aeldra

I ike @Tremula's idea, but I also think that it would be nice if the guilds would put work into providing packs. Could also, instead of making it an artifact purchase, have it be automatically awarded for a certain guild level (e. g. reaching GR2 ? or getting out of the collegium? )

Tarkenton

@Enyalida, if it can be abused it will be.

Ranah

Can shops be stocked with packages of stuff? IE Packs with things in them already? I'd imagine newbie packs are something cities and guilds could do with a sponsored shop.

People have been incredibly generous helping me get oriented and figure out what I need and helping to supply.

For lucrative bashing areas for the post-newbie newbiehood (that weird area between 30 and 60), maybe have the rewards diminish the higher your level is compared to that zone?

Aside from gold, newbie-wise, the biggest issue I had was understanding the sheer range of items I would need to maintain (and how everything seems to clutter up when you look at someone). Tangential to this so I should add it to the newbie thread, but better guidance with enchantments and curatives would be good. I wish some of that had been in the collegium.

Yarou

Davos said:

@aeldra

I think a standard welcome package system would be nice to have implemented. We've tried that as well but have so few novices we have decay issues. I asked our patron if it was possible to have something where we give them to our tutor and he hands them out to newbies, but that was a no go.

I don't really know what's possible in that regard but I think it'd help a lot especially considering the amount of resources that are just sitting around not helping novices due to mechanical constraints.

I go out of my way to help all Magnagoran newbies and even a few non-Mag ones and I have to say, I agree with the concept of this thread. We need more newbie-friendly resources, especially for true newbies [people who've never played a MUD before].

That being said, I'm considering a bank account for whatever equipment the Cacophony's novices may need. I'm also toying with the idea of putting someone over creating those "welcome packages" you mentioned -- basic stuff that like pipes, curatives, clothing, et cetera. And that's just the start.

I'm determined to do what I can to make a difference in Lusternia's newbie scene. So far I haven't done anything huge, but I'm of the firm belief that every hey, welcome to the game! and if you need anything, let me know and I'll help get you sorted! helps. Hell, just letting a newbie know that there is someone on stand-by to help them can decide whether or not they keep plugging at the game. And the longer they give it a chance, the more time we have as a community to suck away their soul and coerce them into joining us forever! Muwahahahaa!

So .. yeah .. um.

Yarou

I would only make the packages as they're required, so they can get used as soon as possible instead of sitting and decaying. Less resources are wasted that way -- but I mean, it'd be easy to put together a minimal cheap package that still provides all the essentials. Generic wooden pipes and vials, generic robes, fifty of every curative, and so forth. Don't all cities have ambassadorial ministries with funds set aside for these purposes?

Twytch

@Yarou Whoops, I was on the mobile and accidentally hit 'Disagree'!

I don't think the best way to fix the economy problem of 'too much gold' is to introduce yet even more gold into the system, even if it's skewed towards the have-not end of the player spectrum. This is primarily because the main cause of the problem isn't gold drops.

The major cause of the inflation, I think, is the very high number of "freebie" producers that have become wildly prevalent. You have the relatively tame things, like the aethermanse additions that produce comms, and you have the hilariously broken, like the treasure map curios. I have seen people walking around with 50+ of these maps, and they reportedly produce more than a million gold every week. This is not all right.

Aside from addressing the high input of gold, the admin should also think of viable gold sinks that hopefully do not become essential in combat. Again: non-essential for combat. Let's not undo the whole scaling down through the overhaul thing. You might even want to do a gold auction (I remember a couple of these being done before) in order to target the outlier players with more gold than entire organizations, I dunno.

Sedanas

Tarkenton said:

Honestly, what's to stop people from warcrying to keep aggro on themselves while having newbies kill things? First exploit I can think of. Load the newbie up on gold cookies, maybe even try a poteen, then go warcrying with your noob. Toss them your whip while you tank, super profit.

I actually tried this with a newbie once and it... Isn't as reliable as it sounds

.... Especially in a room full of Krokani.

EditsoIcancontribute: I think a novice bank fund would be the best idea. Honestly, if your city or commune is supporting you like it -should- (Like I have certainly experienced in no small part) then getting past the low-circle hell areas won't take long. Curatives are very expensive, yes, but by the time you should need the expensive types in bulk you should be at a decent standing OR at least have the help needed. 

I also seriously doubt anyone would let their novices suffer and say "Well just avoid X affliction for now", since that doesn't teach them anything. The whole point of being a novice is to learn, the grinding comes later.

Xenthos

It would be more reliable if you used a standard so that guard mobs attack you when they spawn, then warcry immediately after the newbie hits. Or could just (ab)use Aegis, of course.

Synkarin

I agree with @Twytch - introducing more gold into the system isn't likely to solve things. I also don't really think things are really inflated price wise. 

It may be best to put a limit on how many maps can be read per month

Tekora

I've always addressed this issue when it arises by providing said supplies to novices, free of cost.

As a more long term solution, redistribute the wealth. 

Tax the rich. Charge exorbitant gold fees for connecting a manse to the city. Continue to charge annual fees to keep that manse connected.

Enact novice stipends and guild faculty/ministerial salaries. Get the gold back into the hands of younger players.

Instead of waiting for the admins to do something about it, do something that we ourselves can control.

Make Lusternia great again!

Chirbo

Newbie gold really isn't that big a deal when literally half your org throws gold on newbs

Chirbo

Is that just gaudiguch?

Chirbo

You guys need to be better to your kids yo

Luce

I'm not sure appropriating Trump's slogan for Bernie's campaign is the best move there. Things like Powerstones/cut gems are cheap because of the prevalence of free uncut gem comms and changes to the formula for gemcutting that let powerstones happen more often. I remember that when powerstones were 1-2k per, sips of h/m/b were about 30g each (now about 120), herbs were usually about 10-15g each, except sparkleberry because of shady practices and price gouging, and faeleaf/earwort/merbloom because of the fact that they could only be grown in contested territory. 

Unfortunately, I don't think the ideas laid out would quite cut it for pulling money out of the hands of those who the inflation is tailored around. The people with 30+ maps, 15 ur'traps, 5 genies, 4 damage whips, a level 2 crit rune, and a partridge in a pear tree will always be able to generate gold faster than it can readily be taken out of the game (note, out of the game completely, not just put into some schmuck's stockroom or the org/guild bank accounts.), and those without them will always need supplies that drain the same resources as the aforementioned omnitrans demitrains, only it's a much different section of their incomes. Those with the highest income are the ones who set the bar for prices, and I'd rather not have a feature locked away behind a hefty gold sink that the average player will never be able to meet.

Add to this the complication that actual newbies will have no idea what is and is not a good use of their time (For instance, bashing in the Toronada flats is likely to drain resources faster if you don't have Kingdom enchant, and even with it, you're better off staying in Newton at those levels as the gold earned per hour is higher inside Newton than out between the short respawn timers, puny damage output, and generous rewards for turning in corpses. Between these is Bard/Pilgrims/Scholars, which is a zero or near zero resource endeavor, but is time consuming.) and only a middling idea of what supplies and equipment they will or won't need, depending on what is in their CGHELP and GHELP files and how up-to-date that information is, and I'm much, MUCH less concerned about the potential abuse than I am the attrition of newcomers.

Maybe we can adjust or improve the newbie Achievements or tasks? Like: Master Caster - Master Elementalism and choose a specialisation - reward 240 sips of mana potion and a threadbare robe (enchanted robe with 1/2 the normal durability a new robe would have).; Graduate - Graduate from the Collegium - reward 40 each of Steam, Ice, Dust, and thatfourththing, 3 pipes, 1 vial and 1 teardrop sigil, all with half the usual durability for a new item; Stipic - prevent 2500 damage worth of bleeding or bruising through CLOT - 1 plain iron band enchanted with 10 charges of Kingdom. Things that are needful, but short lived, so that the newbie knows what to look for, and has a little time/breathing room to earn them. 

Have the achievements in place but with a pittance or no reward at all for a week or two so that non-newbies get credit, then hook them up with the real reward. 

Tekora

My ideas might not be a cure all, but it's stuff that can be done without admin intervention, and thus, more quickly.

Cyndarin

I'm not entirely sure this is accurate. 

Basic PvE curatives are pretty darn cheap. You can rat/pigeon/weevil/whatever in 30 minutes to buy enough for some refills. 

Sure, you aren't really amassing gold from 30-60 or even to 70 or 80, but you're making enough to replenish your bashing requirements. 

Guild tutors can sell goods for extremely cheap, subsidized by the guild itself. No one really utilizes this though. At least not consistently. 

The easiest solution would be a newbie only shop funded and stocked by each org. Cannot purchase from it after level 60 or some such.

Xenthos

Well, guild tutors are an issue because you have to buy it from your patron, they're not documented anywhere, and every implementation is different. So not every guild has one (even if they want it). Alas.

Manteekan

Xenthos said:

Well, guild tutors are an issue because you have to buy it from your patron, they're not documented anywhere, and every implementation is different. So not every guild has one (even if they want it). Alas.

If a guild wants a guild tutor shop and does not have one, be sure to reach out to others in your Pantheon, if you've tried a few times already with the Patron.

Xenthos

I'll keep that in mind.  I just tried Nocht the other day based on Maylea's suggestion, so haven't really given him time to really look into it yet (I think).  I appreciate the suggestion, and will definitely pursue it if he's super-busy!

Shaddus

It's probably because nobody really wants to know where in the Wyrdling the stockroom would be,

Kalnid

Shaddus said:

It's probably because nobody really wants to know where in the Wyrdling the stockroom would be,

Appendix.