Nihilist Combat Idea Discussion

Nienla

This is to piggy back off of the Moondancer discussion since there were some concerns shared in Tweets about the future state of Nihilists. This is largely due to the concern that they're (possibly) losing Torture, Wrack, Omen, Ectoplasm, and more. This is silly, if indeed the case, and I believe Nihilists deserve a fair and even looking at given that they're a legacy class for Lusternia AND they're losing a lot of their core, toys, and utility from Necromancy.

Firstly, I don't think Omen should disappear. We're keeping certain afflictions for classes and I think Omen deserves to be one that Necromancy gets to keep. It's useful for ur'Guard and for Nihilist if they want to pursue a damage route. While rare for Nihilists to pursue a damage route, it's handy for groups, which is an area that Nihilist will absolutely lack in with these changes outside of Tarot (which every Guardian has access to), Beckon (Celestines also have it) and Shackles (which Celestines now have as well). Basically, Nihilists should have something unique as a class that they bring to the fore for Magnagora. Edit: If you absolutely want to do away with Omen, tie some portion of its functionality into deathmark. Unless you're getting rid of that too.

Anyway. This is for @Marcella and @Silvanus to bring their ideas to the table and for others to discuss. I have no stock in what Nihilist gets and I'm just being as impartial as I can. However, from what I've heard from multiple parties, Nihilist has been treated pretty unfairly.

Marcella

We've given up playing with the furies since we had a report go through back in May 2015 to change necromancy feed and it hasn't been implemented. Now the nihilists just flex geomancer.

Tarkenton

Make omen give -13/-13 resists. Won't be as large a buff as now, I imagine, but it's a starting point.

Silvanus

Give demons passive Crucifix that doesn't stun.

I will say that with Contagion, Coldaura, Hexen speed, and double afflicting demon for 80 seconds, you can really hinder someone to the point of incapability, and that is why people have a fear of upgrading Nihilists.

But it'll be nearly impossible to kill you during that time because that requires Power.

A serious suggestion could be lowering the Cost of Wrack if they are prone/paralysed to 2 or 3 power, and keeping it at 5 if not prone.

Nienla

A <50% mana-based instakill at 2 or 3p, even with the additional requirement of paralysis or prone seems pretty powerful. Almost overly so. Also, if Wrack got the entanglement/prone/paralyzed requirement removed, it'd have to be moved up to 8p along with Absolve since they'd be doing the same thing functionally at that point. There isn't a terrible amount of difference between the mana kill-route strategy between Nihilist and Celestine to warrant a different power cost for those abilities.

I actually have a request from @Ieptix or any other administrator in charge of balance concerns as to what their vision is for Nihilist post-revamp or how they imagine the class pursuing kills. This would help formulate a more definitive structure for the Nihilist class and allow folks to make suggestions to based on what direction that the administrators see for the class.

Qistrel

@Nienla It seems like most of the people who used to care about getting Nihilist combat to a well-balanced place have now given up even trying.

Rivius

The thing about Omen is that it's currently balanced by focus spirit, which seems to be going away.

Marcella

No, it's currently 'balanced' by being irrelevant since the overhaul made it, instead of increasing damage by like...50-75%, increasing damage by...like...10%.

We've basically decided 'screw it' like Qistrel said.

Arcanis

How serendipitous.


I recently had a discussion with Estarra about Nihilist (and admittedly Celestine) mechanics, and I was encouraged to go present them on the forums for feedback. Since a thread is now up on the topic, I suppose I can put them here.


While I know my idea will be a big change, i'll leave it for another post. For now, I will say that we are working to place a bandaid on the Nihilist skills, and have some good ideas we'll be trying to push through for pacts

Lerad

If Omen is currently -10/-10, it gives +30% damage. (Not exactly, because of how resists and maluses interact as a percentage of damage, but you get the idea)

Everyone's reports are frozen at the moment - it's not just the Nihilists who are not having reports go through.

If you want to give up and not contribute, that's probably fine by everyone. It'd be nice, however, if you actually let the people who want to try some discussion via a forums thread to try it to their satisfaction.

Nihilist combat is fairly one dimensional. They have a passive hinder pet, and they can burst you down with a set of afflictions to make writhing out of crucify impossible. Sacrifice. End. Many parts of that one dimensional set up is going away or getting changed thanks to the Overhaul. Keeping the status quo by tweaking abilities is possibly an idea, but if that style of combat is considered stale, coming up with something new could be more worth the while. I'm not familiar enough with the class to suggest major changes, but there are a couple of ideas that have popped into my head so far:

With the new bruising (blunt bleed) system upcoming, making a caster-bruise class could be a possible way forward. It helps that bruising builds into mana kills because it uses clotting as well. RP wise, tight webbings, shackles etc could also cause bruising, and if you want to maintain the Nihilist theme of bondage, you could tie the aff to somehow give burst bruising.

As usual for burst mechanics, the place of balance should be activation requirements balanced with the power cost and loss of momentum (not monk momentum, but giving up progress). You could give Nihilists a set of new abilities (or repurpose some old ones, giving up old mechanics) that give huge bursts of bruising, but which requires, and cures, things like shackles, web, paralysis, contagion affs, stuff specific to Magnagoran guilds etc. Limited time windows (writhe afflictions are cured via time) and/or the need to build aff momentum beforehand only to give it up in exchange for bruising will be examples of how to make such things work. Delay-activation abilities could be another way to enable burst strategies: Example, cast omen, 5s later, something happens based on conditions: if target has X bruise, give Y and Z affliction. Then your nihilist will be on balance to 'cure' that Y and Z affliction with an ability that gives even more bruise at that point in time.

Another alternative is to make curing OUT of those afflictions give bruising, but making the window for that additional effect also a small one, so a Nihilist passively gives such afflictions, and times their abilities to the time when they think the opponent is curing out of it, to gain additional effects. One idea could be an ability that lasts for 2s on target. If target writhes out of shackles within these 2s, they will get hit with 800 bruising and get shackled again after a 3s delay. Etc.

Lastly, because of how bruising works, you would want to enable it being a threat by giving Nihilists some way to force movement. A power fear cast that forces the target to move, regardless of on-or-off-balance - could even make it incur a further balance loss if target is off-balance while it is used. Targeted passive fear that lasts a limited amount of time could work. Even forced movement that triggers bruise damage, like dragging if target is bound in shackles could work. Or even just buff beckon, make it ignore summon resist if target has above 1000 bruise. Follow up idea: Giving the Nihilist passive damage boosts if target is above certain bruise thresholds or giving extra effects to other abilities at different bruise thresholds to enable finishers can round off the strategy meta.

Once the manakill route is solidified and viable, exploring sacrifice and how to make that route viable is the next step, possibly tying into the same bruise/writhe mechanics.

If writhe mechanics are too frustrating (balance locking, constant writhing, unable to retaliate etc etc being frustrating, which they are), change shackles to not hinder attacks, but require writhe (a balance use) to cure. If that falls under "new affliction" and can't be done, then substitute shackles for some other contagion or appropriate affliction or affliction set with less frustrating effects.

Marcella

I...i like that idea about bruising. I don't exactly know how it WORKS because warrior isn't in yet and I havn't messed around with it, but count on @Lerad to actually come up with stuff that we havn't thought of.

Shuyin

I think that moving away from balance-stacking is a great thing. Writhe stacking is pretty lame for both the attacker (keep trying the same thing until it works) and the victim (offbalance for 30s+ and just watch yourself die).

We should move away from generally-incurable win conditions like allergies, inquisition, and so forth.

I like the bruising concept and think that it's definitely something unique that nihilists can embrace given that only BC's will be taking advantage of it right now. Further, given how much the overhaul has affected Nihilists, they probably will have a lot of leeway in designing their skills.

Vivet

Focus Spirit was always kind of dicey with Omen anyways, so I see no need for it to continue to have a cure. Even without Focus Spirit, Omen tends to last a short time. Maybe up its timer somewhat as a baby step.

What's happening to Wrack, though, why's that got the can? Or how, perhaps.

Kalnid

What's the impetus for using bruising instead of just complementing the (limited) bleed mechanics nihilists already have in play? I haven't been paying all that much attention to new!warriors, what's the difference between the two?

Tarkenton

It's there, it's new, it makes sense with the whole bindings sort of thing I imagine. The only issue I can think of is how will it stack with Bonecrushers? As is, they're looking like the goto spec for group combat with "easy" access to blackout and stuns, so I imagine they'll start becoming a bit more common.