Anyone who claims that the game's mechanics won't get changed because people dislike how it affects their RP should ask Glomdoring why they aren't killing fae for their power quest.
Or those saying "the admin won't cater to RP" should ask Maeve where her brand is.
Affinity is an outdated and overhanded system that was put in place to stop gods taking over other orgs en masse.
While gods are tied to orgs for patronage benefits their roleplay, mantra and tenents are very much individual. It isn't unthinkable for a god from one org to appeal to players of another due to their character.
Those players already suffer an offerings penalty due to being in another org than the Divine in question's pantheon, they don't need to double up on that with a passive malus that gets worse the more active and contributing (and thus rewarded in rank) you are in that order.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Another perspective on the affinity thing - I started this game back in July, in Glom. This was before the Glom gods were active. Then I moved to Serenwilde, again before the Serenwilde gods became active again. Then I moved to Gaudiguch and a god was kidnapped. As an IRE player I know I've just had bad luck with properly crossing paths with a potential patron and I know that players come and go and not all gods are actively played and they will be eventually...
...But when your playtime is much smaller scale and you aren't looking at things in terms of years, it's really kinda a bummer. I wanted to join someone, anyone when I was newer but was told I'd have to quit my orgs because of affinity which sounds scary and is a big thing to ask.
It is absolutely understandable that not every org will have its divine active all at once. However, because of affinity, we are limited to only selecting patrons from this pool. This means if gods from our org are inactive, we can't go to other gods to experience orders which are a big part of the game, especially if you are a RPer.
I think the compromise might be opening up one or two org-neutral orders for people who are more open to RP across orgs. Ianir is cool, he could have an order. Or Roark.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
Maybe outer orders could be made to not cost essence in affinity, that way people could still be in the order and not cost the God anything unless the God decided they were worth it.
Another way to look at it is this: gods aren't stupid. If you've got an active God, and you're costing them essence and they haven't kicked you out? That's an active decision on their part. You're worth having in their order, in their eyes.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Orv was, is, and always will be a Hoaracean at heart. At the same time, she'll always be a Hallifaxian. Rpwise, it simply made sense because she's a faeling, and it satisfied her on a deep level to have that connection to her 'roots'. Hoaracle's tenets on inter-connectivity at the time also had meshed well with her concept of Collectivism.
When she was in the order, affinity was a thing I constantly felt guilty about irl as a player, but @Hoaracle was also super kind about it. While I can dream and hope that affinity would magically go away, I'd think a compromise like lessened but not negative draining offerings and essence, limited privileges could be...a thing?
I mean, it is a little odd that non ordered people can offer for more than an out of affinity order member. I don't know, but I'd also like to think things have matured now where we could just say, hey new rule, no invading other orders etc. because it really just screws everyone over in the long run? Like, otherwise it feels we've inherited a punishment handed to a many greats ancestor because of something they did, and we're left with the fallout for generations.
/rambling
I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots. Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
The main problem with affinity is actually emotional rather than mechanical.
To tell the truth, Divine essence is probably of little to no concern to the gods in question.
If they really need to, they can just top it off with a command. Of course, Estarra probably has strict rules about when this is acceptable and when this is not, and essence itself may be tied to some aspect of the volunteers' personal reward system (like building a godrealm using essence, creating orders/stoles/items etc using essence), or certain IC actions (cursing, blessing etc).
But if there is a pressing need, like an event where a god really needs to zap someone because of story or plot progression - they'll probably be given the essence to do so. In normal day to day, I guess if they run out of essence, they just can't do those things. It can be limiting, of course, but I don't think any of our volunteers are such megalomaniacs that only play the game so that they can zap and do things like that. It's a nice plus (personal reward system), and better to have than to not have. But their relationships to their order members are probably of more importance to them.
On the player side, I think there's even less of a mechanical impact. Shrine powers are the only thing I know of that use a god's essence that players can initiate. And well, personal powers can use karma if divine essence is not needed.
The main issue with affinity (and players draining essence), is simply the feeling that they are a burden to an entity important to them. You're actually not really being a burden, though, but the visibility of it makes you feel like you are. If you are negative affinity, but log in and actually interact with the god in question, chances are, they will appreciate the interaction much more than if you chose to go and hunt (at a reduced efficiency, no less) to try and make up for numbers that probably mean very little in the grand scheme of things.
Affinity is designed to be painfully visible and aggravating, but mechanically, its real effects are very much limited.
When push comes to shove, if a divine absolutely, really needs the essence, and can no longer "afford" to keep a negative affinity order member, then cutting ties is also part of their prerogative. Obviously, that is a move that will invite backlash, not to mention cause a great amount of distress to the player (and character) in question, so it's rarely done. In fact, I've not personally known of a case where a god has removed an order member for purely affinity based reasons before. But they can do it. I've certainly seen people kicked from orders for what will seem ICly to be lesser sins. A bit of disrespect, for example, is arguably of less import than actively draining what is considered the life-force of a Divine just be existing.
But I'm sure people who have been around for a while can vouch for when disrespectful interactions, even ones that are misunderstandings or only perceived to be disrespectful by the divine in question, have led to punishments that involved being kicked out of the order. ICly, that seems like a contradiction. And the reason for this is because OOCly, that probably is much more important to a Divine than affinity drains. The RP interaction of actually reacting to an IC action trumps concerns about affinity, because affinity is likely to have little impact on the god directly.
This emotional blowback of affinity is, as I mentioned, intentionally designed. It is a system that is meant to make the act of being outside of a god's org a painful one. Not just a painful one, but a torturous one. The distress you're feeling is intentional.
Whether this is good or bad... well. I don't have a horse, dead or alive, in this race, so what I say will probably sound unfair and insensitive to those who are actually suffering under the system. But I personally think that it does make people think twice about what it means, in-character, to take such a path. And that is important. It's a system that has meaning to the character. We, as players, just need to take a step back, and assess it for what it is: OOCly near to meaningless to the Divine. If you're ever in a situation where you're negative affinity, think about what that means for the character, and don't stress about the pain of grinding the numbers back. That is probably not what your god is keeping you in their order for. The IC development and RPing of the circumstances around your character's choices is probably going to be much more interesting to them, and will more than make up for the numbers you're taking away from their "life-force".
By the way, I'm not opposed to removing affinity, or making it another incarnation. At the end of the day, something that causes disproportionate distress is probably something that can be improved to be more obviously meaningful. The "this is a game" defense is one that is actually valid here, once the distress created passes a certain threshold. Conflicts (and this IS a conflict between a character's choice, or his environment's circumstances and his ideals) are meant to be distressing, but a game should have a limit, past which it's time to reconsider priorities.
There're many ways to achieve the same effect, and likewise, there certainly are plenty of possible alternative ways to implement affinity that can be an improvement over how it currently exists.
However, in the short term before any change is effected (assuming the admin are willing to consider it), it definitely could help to know that the current system does have some meaning, and not in the way that we (as players in a grinding game) automatically assume.
So, maybe just have affinity bar Non-orgers from the inner circle and avatar-ship. Maybe alter the offering formulae to have both being in an Org, and being in the Order of said deity both give a small equal bonus. That way, all other things being equal, a nonGlom in Nocht's order and a Glommie not in his order can make equal offerings, but there isn't a way for the nonGlommie to take over his Order.
I really just think that they should standardize the drain (no ludicrously higher drain based on rank, just a flat, reasonable amount for everyone), cut the malus to offerings on cross-org order members, and instead make it so everyone inside a God's affiliated org gets an offering bonus. While you could do an offering malus for everyone outside instead, an aligned bonus accomplishes the same thing in a manner that would have a more positive reception (encouraging players to join the affiliated org, rather than punish them for being outside of it, makes people less likely to feel like the game is unfairly aligned against them.)
The 1/2 offering thing is the only thing about affinity that doesn't make sense to me. Like an org enemy can offer and result in more essence than an affinity punished person. Everything else seems kinda alright.
I really just think that they should standardize the drain (no ludicrously higher drain based on rank, just a flat, reasonable amount for everyone), cut the malus to offerings on cross-org order members, and instead make it so everyone inside a God's affiliated org gets an offering bonus. While you could do an offering malus for everyone outside instead, an aligned bonus accomplishes the same thing in a manner that would have a more positive reception (encouraging players to join the affiliated org, rather than punish them for being outside of it, makes people less likely to feel like the game is unfairly aligned against them.)
Following up on this, I'd like to add that I think driving home the point that a Divine would rather you were in their home org through roleplay would be a better way to apply pressure than a huge drain that makes people hate playing the game. When you're fighting an impossible negative number, you feel like you're fighting mechanics. When you're fighting Crushing Disappointed Parent Patron Shame, it's a character dilemma that you have more control over, and that feels better for everyone.
There should be some drain, but it should be relatively minor. Just enough to remind you that you're doing something wrong, making it visible to anyone who can look at the logs. Maybe enough that if you never offer, there's pressure to not be such a burden. A drain that makes you feel obligated to dedicate your playtime to keeping up with it is overkill.
I always got the impression affinity was designed to be a deterrent to the divinities themselves, rather than the players - it rather just happens that they are intertwined.
If your Divinity of choice is not expressly expecting you to perform upkeep, it seems probable that they are accepting the fact that you are creating a net essence loss, and it is not worth fretting over unless they do acknowledge it.
That said, if I were in such a position I would have a hard time accepting that perspective myself - especially if I could see the offeringlogs and know very surely how much I am costing.
If/when the people up in Havens might decide they want a change, I'm sure they'll let us know and it won't have costs attached to it.
EDIT: For clarity, -credit costs-
That could be the case, but that would be hit or miss in its ability to impact. Any active god who actually pays attention to mortals would be able to support a small army of folks. In my experience, the cost is difficult if you're paying it in corpses (but mostly then if you're inactive or don't like to hunt -- I suppose if you're orderhead it gets hard). But if the goal is to block the deity from having a large group, then it would be fairly trivial do just use a group figurine to outpace pretty much any drain.
I could be wrong on my mental math, but I don't believe so.
@BoardOfDirectors: Next time you want to implement some stupid thing that constantly sends messages to everyone in a city no matter where they are currently located, don't. Thanks.
Maybe outer orders could be made to not cost essence in affinity, that way people could still be in the order and not cost the God anything unless the God decided they were worth it.
Another way to look at it is this: gods aren't stupid. If you've got an active God, and you're costing them essence and they haven't kicked you out? That's an active decision on their part. You're worth having in their order, in their eyes.
I don't have an objection to this, but you have to be super inactive for the drain to much matter in the outer order in any order I've been in. Meaning that I suppose there could be gods out there packing their outer order with privs, but then that's not only on that god, but they could likewise have ranks for people who reside or do not in the org they patron.
For instance, looking at listofferings I see someone outside of Gaudiguch who is OR 3 is draining 10k a weave. One has to be pretty much completely inactive in such a case to be a problem.
@BoardOfDirectors: Next time you want to implement some stupid thing that constantly sends messages to everyone in a city no matter where they are currently located, don't. Thanks.
This should be one message an hour. If it isn't, tell someone.
@BoardOfDirectors: Next time you want to implement some stupid thing that constantly sends messages to everyone in a city no matter where they are currently located, don't. Thanks.
This should be one message an hour. If it isn't, tell someone.
@BoardOfDirectors: Next time you want to implement some stupid thing that constantly sends messages to everyone in a city no matter where they are currently located, don't. Thanks.
This should be one message an hour. If it isn't, tell someone.
That's one message an hour too many.
The town crier when I visit some cities irks me; I can avoid it by just leaving, though.
Sounds like there needs to be an opt-out for this crier-to-all, because it would bug me too if there really is no way to avoid it save logging off or quitting the city (are those really the only options?).
@BoardOfDirectors: Next time you want to implement some stupid thing that constantly sends messages to everyone in a city no matter where they are currently located, don't. Thanks.
This should be one message an hour. If it isn't, tell someone.
That's one message an hour too many.
The town crier when I visit some cities irks me; I can avoid it by just leaving, though.
Sounds like there needs to be an opt-out for this crier-to-all, because it would bug me too if there really is no way to avoid it save logging off or quitting the city (are those really the only options?).
I hate town criers. I now have an inescapable town crier in my brain. I am Not Happy.
@BoardOfDirectors: Next time you want to implement some stupid thing that constantly sends messages to everyone in a city no matter where they are currently located, don't. Thanks.
This should be one message an hour. If it isn't, tell someone.
Maybe limit the projection to in the city once every 2, and save the pan-aether for special events?
I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots. Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
Everyone's (okay, only a few people) so grumpy about getting a new thing in Hallifax. Reduce the frequency of alerts and make it only work in the city limits, sure, but don't be so negative
Heaven forbid I react negatively to something I dislike, and was given no warning of. Is the other thing you haven't mentioned to people not on the Board of Directors at all something that sends me the equivalent of a spam text every hour, too? Because if so, let me know, so I can preemptively hate that, too.
I don't like it either. I didn't like Aural but he was escapable. I laughed so hard when Mag got their own version after they'd mocked us on forums all that time, but that guy is escapable too.
Comments
Or those saying "the admin won't cater to RP" should ask Maeve where her brand is.
Affinity is an outdated and overhanded system that was put in place to stop gods taking over other orgs en masse.
While gods are tied to orgs for patronage benefits their roleplay, mantra and tenents are very much individual. It isn't unthinkable for a god from one org to appeal to players of another due to their character.
Those players already suffer an offerings penalty due to being in another org than the Divine in question's pantheon, they don't need to double up on that with a passive malus that gets worse the more active and contributing (and thus rewarded in rank) you are in that order.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
...But when your playtime is much smaller scale and you aren't looking at things in terms of years, it's really kinda a bummer. I wanted to join someone, anyone when I was newer but was told I'd have to quit my orgs because of affinity which sounds scary and is a big thing to ask.
It is absolutely understandable that not every org will have its divine active all at once. However, because of affinity, we are limited to only selecting patrons from this pool. This means if gods from our org are inactive, we can't go to other gods to experience orders which are a big part of the game, especially if you are a RPer.
Another way to look at it is this: gods aren't stupid. If you've got an active God, and you're costing them essence and they haven't kicked you out? That's an active decision on their part. You're worth having in their order, in their eyes.
When she was in the order, affinity was a thing I constantly felt guilty about irl as a player, but @Hoaracle was also super kind about it. While I can dream and hope that affinity would magically go away, I'd think a compromise like lessened but not negative draining offerings and essence, limited privileges could be...a thing?
I mean, it is a little odd that non ordered people can offer for more than an out of affinity order member. I don't know, but I'd also like to think things have matured now where we could just say, hey new rule, no invading other orders etc. because it really just screws everyone over in the long run? Like, otherwise it feels we've inherited a punishment handed to a many greats ancestor because of something they did, and we're left with the fallout for generations.
/rambling
I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)
To tell the truth, Divine essence is probably of little to no concern to the gods in question.
If they really need to, they can just top it off with a command. Of course, Estarra probably has strict rules about when this is acceptable and when this is not, and essence itself may be tied to some aspect of the volunteers' personal reward system (like building a godrealm using essence, creating orders/stoles/items etc using essence), or certain IC actions (cursing, blessing etc).
But if there is a pressing need, like an event where a god really needs to zap someone because of story or plot progression - they'll probably be given the essence to do so. In normal day to day, I guess if they run out of essence, they just can't do those things. It can be limiting, of course, but I don't think any of our volunteers are such megalomaniacs that only play the game so that they can zap and do things like that. It's a nice plus (personal reward system), and better to have than to not have. But their relationships to their order members are probably of more importance to them.
On the player side, I think there's even less of a mechanical impact. Shrine powers are the only thing I know of that use a god's essence that players can initiate. And well, personal powers can use karma if divine essence is not needed.
The main issue with affinity (and players draining essence), is simply the feeling that they are a burden to an entity important to them. You're actually not really being a burden, though, but the visibility of it makes you feel like you are. If you are negative affinity, but log in and actually interact with the god in question, chances are, they will appreciate the interaction much more than if you chose to go and hunt (at a reduced efficiency, no less) to try and make up for numbers that probably mean very little in the grand scheme of things.
Affinity is designed to be painfully visible and aggravating, but mechanically, its real effects are very much limited.
When push comes to shove, if a divine absolutely, really needs the essence, and can no longer "afford" to keep a negative affinity order member, then cutting ties is also part of their prerogative. Obviously, that is a move that will invite backlash, not to mention cause a great amount of distress to the player (and character) in question, so it's rarely done. In fact, I've not personally known of a case where a god has removed an order member for purely affinity based reasons before. But they can do it. I've certainly seen people kicked from orders for what will seem ICly to be lesser sins. A bit of disrespect, for example, is arguably of less import than actively draining what is considered the life-force of a Divine just be existing.
But I'm sure people who have been around for a while can vouch for when disrespectful interactions, even ones that are misunderstandings or only perceived to be disrespectful by the divine in question, have led to punishments that involved being kicked out of the order. ICly, that seems like a contradiction. And the reason for this is because OOCly, that probably is much more important to a Divine than affinity drains. The RP interaction of actually reacting to an IC action trumps concerns about affinity, because affinity is likely to have little impact on the god directly.
This emotional blowback of affinity is, as I mentioned, intentionally designed. It is a system that is meant to make the act of being outside of a god's org a painful one. Not just a painful one, but a torturous one. The distress you're feeling is intentional.
Whether this is good or bad... well. I don't have a horse, dead or alive, in this race, so what I say will probably sound unfair and insensitive to those who are actually suffering under the system. But I personally think that it does make people think twice about what it means, in-character, to take such a path. And that is important. It's a system that has meaning to the character. We, as players, just need to take a step back, and assess it for what it is: OOCly near to meaningless to the Divine. If you're ever in a situation where you're negative affinity, think about what that means for the character, and don't stress about the pain of grinding the numbers back. That is probably not what your god is keeping you in their order for. The IC development and RPing of the circumstances around your character's choices is probably going to be much more interesting to them, and will more than make up for the numbers you're taking away from their "life-force".
There're many ways to achieve the same effect, and likewise, there certainly are plenty of possible alternative ways to implement affinity that can be an improvement over how it currently exists.
However, in the short term before any change is effected (assuming the admin are willing to consider it), it definitely could help to know that the current system does have some meaning, and not in the way that we (as players in a grinding game) automatically assume.
There should be some drain, but it should be relatively minor. Just enough to remind you that you're doing something wrong, making it visible to anyone who can look at the logs. Maybe enough that if you never offer, there's pressure to not be such a burden. A drain that makes you feel obligated to dedicate your playtime to keeping up with it is overkill.
Thats just sad. And by far not the saddest out there.
I could be wrong on my mental math, but I don't believe so.
For instance, looking at listofferings I see someone outside of Gaudiguch who is OR 3 is draining 10k a weave. One has to be pretty much completely inactive in such a case to be a problem.
Sounds like there needs to be an opt-out for this crier-to-all, because it would bug me too if there really is no way to avoid it save logging off or quitting the city (are those really the only options?).
I'm a consent-based roleplayer! Kindly ask first, and I will return the favour. Open to developing tinyplots.
Atlantis is my client of choice! (Guide)