Tweets VII: Tweet Child of Mine

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  • Kilee said:
    when I typed f into my address bar and forums.lusternia.com popped up before www.facebook.com ....I think something is horribly wrong
    I've been on Facebook longer than lusternia, and more consistently over the years, lusternia forums still comes up before Facebook when I type f.

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • edited August 2016
    I did not do this. I don't know why I have random amnesty all over the place.
    <br><div>+-------------------------------------------------------------- ENEMIED TO+</div><div>| Aeromancers &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hallifax &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Moondancers &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</div><div>| Airlords &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Hartspirit &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Moonspirit &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Alakar (amnesty 2 mo) &nbsp; Hartstone &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Presidio (amnesty 5 mo) |</div><div>| Arthar'rt &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Kephera (amnesty 1 mo) &nbsp;Serenguard &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Bottledowns (amnesty 4 &nbsp;Kyrian (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp; Serenwilde &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Castellan (amnesty 4 mo Ladantine (amnesty 5 mo Shallach (amnesty 5 mo) |</div><div>| Celest &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Liquorice (amnesty 3 mo Shallamurine (amnesty 2 |</div><div>| Celestia &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Lisaera &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shofangi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Duum (amnesty 2 mo) &nbsp; &nbsp; Maylea &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Terentia &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Gorgogs (amnesty 1 mo) &nbsp;Mesa (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp; &nbsp; Zombies (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp;|</div><div>+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+</div>

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • I'm sorry to anyone I've interacted with in the past...5 or so hours. I shouldn't have logged in today and I regret a lot of things I've said out of stress influencing my decisions. :sweat:

    Your numbers today are:
  • RancouraRancoura the Last Nightwreathed Queen Canada
    edited August 2016
    Dylara said:
    I did not do this. I don't know why I have random amnesty all over the place.
    <br><div>+-------------------------------------------------------------- ENEMIED TO+</div><div>| Aeromancers &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hallifax &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Moondancers &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</div><div>| Airlords &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Hartspirit &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Moonspirit &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Alakar (amnesty 2 mo) &nbsp; Hartstone &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Presidio (amnesty 5 mo) |</div><div>| Arthar'rt &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Kephera (amnesty 1 mo) &nbsp;Serenguard &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Bottledowns (amnesty 4 &nbsp;Kyrian (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp; Serenwilde &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Castellan (amnesty 4 mo Ladantine (amnesty 5 mo Shallach (amnesty 5 mo) |</div><div>| Celest &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Liquorice (amnesty 3 mo Shallamurine (amnesty 2 |</div><div>| Celestia &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Lisaera &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shofangi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Duum (amnesty 2 mo) &nbsp; &nbsp; Maylea &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Terentia &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Gorgogs (amnesty 1 mo) &nbsp;Mesa (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp; &nbsp; Zombies (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp;|</div><div>+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+</div>

    Considering all of those are denizen-controlled areas (excluding Arthar'rt of course because I imagine it's impossible to get amnesty there now), someone could be asking for amnesty on your behalf?

    You did post your list in that other thread!

    Tonight amidst the mountaintops
    And endless starless night
    Singing how the wind was lost
    Before an earthly flight

  • Rancoura said:
    Dylara said:
    I did not do this. I don't know why I have random amnesty all over the place.
    <br><div>+-------------------------------------------------------------- ENEMIED TO+</div><div>| Aeromancers &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hallifax &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Moondancers &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</div><div>| Airlords &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Hartspirit &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Moonspirit &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Alakar (amnesty 2 mo) &nbsp; Hartstone &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Presidio (amnesty 5 mo) |</div><div>| Arthar'rt &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Kephera (amnesty 1 mo) &nbsp;Serenguard &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Bottledowns (amnesty 4 &nbsp;Kyrian (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp; Serenwilde &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Castellan (amnesty 4 mo Ladantine (amnesty 5 mo Shallach (amnesty 5 mo) |</div><div>| Celest &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Liquorice (amnesty 3 mo Shallamurine (amnesty 2 |</div><div>| Celestia &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Lisaera &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Shofangi &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Duum (amnesty 2 mo) &nbsp; &nbsp; Maylea &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Terentia &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>| Gorgogs (amnesty 1 mo) &nbsp;Mesa (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp; &nbsp; Zombies (amnesty 3 mo) &nbsp;|</div><div>+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+</div>

    Considering all of those are denizen-controlled areas (excluding Arthar'rt of course because I imagine it's impossible to get amnesty there now), someone could be asking for amnesty on your behalf?

    You did post your list in that other thread!
    I'm sad. :(

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • I don't remember compassion, empathy, and advocating for the uninformed to be Magnagoran virtues. 
  • I don't know the context here, but I have noticed a few instances where there is a lack of creativity when educating new players. There are ways to convey that an org/player is hostile, cruel, etc while still recognizing that someone is new and learning the game. 
  • ....uh huh. 
  • edited August 2016
    oops
    #NoWireHangersEver

    Vive l'apostrophe!
  • edited August 2016
    Actually ignorance/'being uninformed' IS frowned upon, or at least it was to my knowledge. As the saying goes, 'Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.'


    EDIT: Plus it's good for business, if people know that you're NOT gonna rip them off.
    Kiss of the Enchantress hisses eerily, "Let them fear, and despair."
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.
    I don't remember compassion, empathy, and advocating for the uninformed to be Magnagoran virtues. 
    White Knight syndrome can strike anyone.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • edited August 2016
    ....uh huh. 
    Well, in my experience, I got 4 enemy statuses and an indefinite-duration "We will hunt you down until we get bored with it" for quitting my org after one month of gameplay to join another org because my online times meshed better.  Haven't played this game for years, didn't steal anything, didn't screw anyone over - this just seems to be how newbies are treated, as I can't see any reason that I'd be an exception. When asking people OOC wtf is up, I keep getting told "We are evil, we are dark, this is our RP, you just need to RP it out" without anyone actually willing to RP with me beyond ganking/mount/summon killing. I even lost a ton of lessons, trying to not offend anyone and quitting all my class skills because the threats freaked me out.

    IMO, there are many ways to RP this without being overwhelming and overbearing. None were picked.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited August 2016
    My understanding is that you still have your crow from the Blacktalon, too.  Orgs can indeed take affront at their org-related mobs being (ab)used like that.  There's a Hallifaxian enemied to Shikari because Elanorwen gave her the Shikari-worg purchased when a member of Glomdoring.

    We don't like to see our org-specific loyal things being treated in a manner inconsistent with gameplay / lore, and a crow in Serenwilde is pretty inconsistent (same with a happy/healthy stag in Glomdoring).  Keep in mind that these creatures are a part of the Great Spirit which is opposed to / antithetical to the other organization.  I think Crek even said he'd unenemy / consider unenemying if you ditched the crow, so it is not like you have zero options here.

    Edit: And because I know he has told you this, the whole "they say it is just because they are evil" complaint falls just a bit flat.  You know you have done something, you asked, you were told.  You are indeed a "special case".  And you already know this, because it has been explained to you.  Not everyone gets treated like they have stolen something of great importance to an organization, because very few actually do (or cling to it when it is pointed out).
    image
  • .. Oh, so he DID take something and keep it after all. So he's been actually getting hostility and threats, huh. I guess I'm a bit out of date on the going-ons. Sorry.

    Well, fortunately, I guess there was no case of newbie-harassment-because-of-boredom (as implied by the "until we get bored with it" accusation). And I guess it wasn't a case of killing a newbie simply because he wanted to "join another org because my online times meshed better". And it also wasn't a case of "didn't steal anything" either. Good to know, good to know.

    I am concerned, though. There must have been some failure of communication somewhere. Somewhere, somehow, the explanation of the reasons for being angry at an org mount being taken away got translated to "We are evil, we are dark, this is our RP, you just need to RP it out" in the newbie's understanding. That's quite the impressive transformation - even if we were playing a telephone game with a large number of in-betweens.

  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I also don't know what else has been going on there in specific, aside from Crek logging on to reply to messages and telling us about how frustrated he is with Breandryn saying she thinks it shouldn't be a big deal that she kept her crow and being upset that people are accusing her of stealing things (which is how I know he has been trying to explain it).
    image
  • I can't check right now but pretty sure the black talon enemy was for not forgetting skills and joining seren wilde. Keeping the crow isconsidered Bad (tm) as well and it's being viewed as captive and it's better dead than trapped in seren (at least by my character). These crows, and the stags for that matter, aren't your run of the mill ones, they're deeply connected to the great spirit which is why only hartstone and blacktalon can summon them.


    I also find it surprising that seren wilde let's you keep it, considering I know on an ooc level how anti glom some of the characters are (note I said characters, not players).

    I haven't had much interaction with you because it seemed like you were here one moment in glom and then gone. I'm aware you had to be there for at least a couple days to get enough skill for the crow and shadow lord. The one time I tried to talk to you about it you appeared to be afk at the aether plex,  or ignoring me and I only know of one death related to you leaving (there could be more, I just wasn't told of them).

    Anyways my two cents on the matter, I'll happily do this ic but not if you're afk or unresponsive because I have some time limits on what I can spend my time doing.

    Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."

    The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
    Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.


  • Breandryn said:
    ....uh huh. 
    Well, in my experience, I got 4 enemy statuses and an indefinite-duration "We will hunt you down until we get bored with it" for quitting my org after one month of gameplay to join another org because my online times meshed better.  Haven't played this game for years, didn't steal anything, didn't screw anyone over - this just seems to be how newbies are treated, as I can't see any reason that I'd be an exception. When asking people OOC wtf is up, I keep getting told "We are evil, we are dark, this is our RP, you just need to RP it out" without anyone actually willing to RP with me beyond ganking/mount/summon killing. I even lost a ton of lessons, trying to not offend anyone and quitting all my class skills because the threats freaked me out.

    IMO, there are many ways to RP this without being overwhelming and overbearing. None were picked.
    I'm trying really hard to give you the benefit of the doubt here, since you are a relatively new player, but it rubs me the wrong way that you would portray an entire organization as unfair to newbies on the public forums, and really playing the victim card with a heavy hand when I (and many others) know for a fact that the situation was explained to you both OOCly and ICly. Specifically that you aren't allowed to keep organization specific skills if you leave the organization. 

    To be clear, the RP is not "we're evil, we're dark." All organizations, and I mean this literally, forbid you to leave with their organization specific skills. It is not allowed, from Celest to Magnagora, and they will all enemy you for it. If you still refuse, they may kill you for it. I'd venture to guess any actual "hunting down" you've experienced has been extremely mild, as Glom hasn't bothered to call in the resident griefers to bother you. If actually Glom wanted you to get ganked endlessly, I suspect you and I would have spent a lot more time together by now. 

    No one brands and hunts down new players over leaving orgs, period. It's just not a thing that happens. The admin have demonstrated a zero tolerance policy on the targeting of new players for no reason (or a poor reason). 
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    As an aside - I think it's weird that @Breandryn often quotes things from Aetolia, which is a game that literally enemies people out of the portal for being in an enemy org. No other reason than 'you live in such and such town and we hate them'. 

    Things here are much more mild than that.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • Let's ease up on the personal attacks here, guys. I made a mistake in the wording of a message when explaining why she was enemied. I said skills of Crow instead of gifts of Crow in the message (the enemying reason is correctly worded saying gifts of Crow meaning BT specific skills and items. She could have kept druidry for all I cared. Just drop Crow and don't take the crow mount with you). That may be part of the confusion.

    As for people attacking her that's on them. I encouraged a bounty until she dropped the skill. Nobody took the offer. I rescinded the bounty. Those attacking her now are doing so on their own. Was it petty to do so? Sure. Glomdoring is a jealous and hateful organization that only cares about itself. I don't see how that is overbearing but hey, I'm on the other end of the situation.
    The Divine voice of Ianir the Anomaly echoes in your head, "You are a ray of sunshine in a sea of 
    depression. I just wanted you to know that."
  • TremulaTremula Banished Quasiroyal
    Finally, I got an idea for my bardics and artisanals again. Running a dry spell of a few months seems to finally be over? Let's hope!
                          * * * WRACK AND ROLL AND DEATH AND PAIN * * *
                                         * * * LET'S FEEL THE FEAR OF DEATH AGAIN * * *
              * * * WE'LL KILL AND SLAUGHTER, EAT THE SLAIN * * *
      * * * IN RAVAGING WE'LL ENTERTAIN * * *

    Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
  • edited August 2016
    I've honestly been waiting for a chance to chew her out about the crow. It's not really come up ICly when I'm around.
  • Synkarin said:
    As an aside - I think it's weird that @Breandryn often quotes things from Aetolia, which is a game that literally enemies people out of the portal for being in an enemy org. No other reason than 'you live in such and such town and we hate them'. 

    Things here are much more mild than that.
    Actually, that's not true at all - at least not right now. You can actually join an organisation on one side and then visit the city on the other side unless you're undead, which does have some restrictions. People frequently meet with people from enemy orgs. As far as I can tell, you can take part in all the PK you want, short of actually raiding a city and you wouldn't even be enemied for it.
  • You guys are really twisting my words. In my view this is what happened: I changed orgs. I sent very long thank you messages and apologies to make it clear that I wasn't trying to be rude and that I was grateful for my time spent there. I logged back in, read messages about being enemied to many places and was told I had a bounty, because I had stolen skills. I wasn't trying to do that and had assumed I'd lose org-skills when I left since most of the ABs refer to the Master Ravenwood, so I read help files and figured out how to quit and quit the skills fully, including the root skill trees - I was planning on staying a Druid, but once I realized I had wasted any cross-over lessons with my panic, I kinda gave up on that.That's what I mean by losing lessons. I did not retain any skills, but people still send me tells, as recently as like 2 days ago, shitting on me for stealing skills. I wasn't hunted a ton, but every time someone shows up, they reference that. Every time someone kills my wolf, they reference that. It's TIRING being called a traitor and a thief when all I wanted was to be in an org that matched my online play time.

    No one brands and hunts down new players over leaving orgs, period. It's just not a thing that happens.

    But that is exactly what happened. I didn't retain the skills, and I even unlearned the base skills.

    The crow is another issue - it wasn't mentioned or inquired about until 3 days ago. I don't take him out and I approached a few Divine looking for potential routes to deal with him. Mechanically, I don't think he even is a Blacktalon crow, though? He lost the innate skills. In any case, I'm not going around flaunting him or even using him. He's chilling in Kiadoka while I find a way to change him or send him to a happy crow farm or whatnot. It's frustrating that once I pointed out that I didn't take skills, the accusation then shifted to me stealing a mount.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    edited August 2016
    Er, both mechanically and RPwise it is still a Glomdoring crow.  Brother Crow is a Great Spirit, the collective consciousness of all crows.  Forgetting Blacktalon skills does not somehow mechanically make a crow stop being a crow.  Who cares about the innate skills?

    PS: You got it through a BT skill.  The argument did not "shift," they are the exact same thing.  It is the product of those skills and by having it you have not fully eschewed them.

    PPS: You can just kill it, stage a Seren Death-To-Crows ritual or something and murder it until it permanently dies, let it starve to death, etc.  I do not know if you can transfer it to another BT (for some reason "no" is coming to mind).  The only other option is to pay the credits to make it a custom mount, which would enable you to change its description entirely (it would no longer be a crow anything).

    Edit: Keeping it is, of course, an option too.  But doing so has consequences, because crows are 100% Glom-aligned.
    image
  • I'm glad I'm not the only one having a meltdown today.
    Your numbers today are:
  • edited August 2016
    Breandryn said:

    The crow is another issue - it wasn't mentioned or inquired about until 3 days ago. I don't take him out and I approached a few Divine looking for potential routes to deal with him. Mechanically, I don't think he even is a Blacktalon crow, though? He lost the innate skills. In any case, I'm not going around flaunting him or even using him. He's chilling in Kiadoka while I find a way to change him or send him to a happy crow farm or whatnot. It's frustrating that once I pointed out that I didn't take skills, the accusation then shifted to me stealing a mount.
    Yeah, calling bs on this. Because I learned about this as soon as I joined Glom when I asked why you left

    (also I've contacted you before via tells about your crow but wasn't replied to)
    Your numbers today are:
  • LuceLuce Fox Populi
    Don't think customising a currently existing beast lets you change the base noun like that without paying what amounts to a full custom beast. At which point...why not make it something else and get back the points 'lost' on the innate skill?
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    I am not calling that out because it is possible it was not conveyed to her until more recently (three days ago or so is when Crek was talking about trying to explain to her that the crow/skills are the same thing).  On our side, we have known about the crow for a long time (as you stated).

    Unless you actually know she was informed of the crow before then, please avoid calling BS.  There are already enough hurt feelings on this topic!
    image
This discussion has been closed.