Elders need a Druid to carve (or a Crow Ebonguard/Stag Serenguard, but there's like one of those Glomside and his name is John Cena Xenthos), which is limited to two guilds (one of whom is heavily disincentivized to take the option). Statues are able to be made by anyone who invests into Arts. I consider that a fair benefit in exchange for totems being indestructible.
I don't know how long it takes to enchant a statue (Edit: 10 minutes, apparently), but I'd be fine with it being made faster (or totem carving made slower, within reason as Ssaliss notes, so as per edit, 1 minute maximum) in exchange for totems not needing to be bonded to have runes affixed and be useful. You then get a mechanic where both sides have access to the same basic capabilities, but with different flavour - statues are easier to put up and destroy, totems are indestructible but take maintenance lest they become elders, which are both non-functional and vulnerable, and it takes much longer to replace a totem than to replace a statue. Heck - bearing in mind the time to replace, I almost think the enchant time on statues is a fair tradeoff.
I'd also be okay with totems not producing power, if we got more defensible terrain. Perhaps this - totems hit tree elevations as well as ground floor, but totems don't generate power - trees still do. So we can produce more power than cities, by trading off defense, or we can trade off some/all of our extra power generation for protecting our land.
Afternote - didn't see that it takes ten minutes to destroy a statue. Seriously? No - that should be brought down to the equivalent of cutting a tree, or treecutting brought up to match that, if they're made equivalent mechanics.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Someone is grossly overstating the power impact of killing cosmic entities. Neither fae gathering nor demon killing has a sizable impact on power generation for anyone. It's piddly both ways, can we drop the bullshit.
Daughters and ladies are actually solid defenders, their strength only somewhat compensating for communes having crappy arches and crappy versions of flux/ripple with liveforest. A savvy defender knows how to use daughters/ladies to facilitate plane defense, which is why killing them is actually harmful to the org. Unless you, very conveniently, only measure harm by power lost.
Elders need a Druid to carve (or a Crow Ebonguard/Stag Serenguard, but there's like one of those Glomside and his name is John Cena Xenthos), which is limited to two guilds (one of whom is heavily disincentivized to take the option). Statues are able to be made by anyone who invests into Arts. I consider that a fair benefit in exchange for totems being indestructible.
I don't know how long it takes to enchant a statue (Edit: 10 minutes, apparently), but I'd be fine with it being made faster (or totem carving made slower, within reason as Ssaliss notes, so as per edit, 1 minute maximum) in exchange for totems not needing to be bonded to have runes affixed and be useful. You then get a mechanic where both sides have access to the same basic capabilities, but with different flavour - statues are easier to put up and destroy, totems are indestructible but take maintenance lest they become elders, which are both non-functional and vulnerable, and it takes much longer to replace a totem than to replace a statue. Heck - bearing in mind the time to replace, I almost think the enchant time on statues is a fair tradeoff.
I'd also be okay with totems not producing power, if we got more defensible terrain. Perhaps this - totems hit tree elevations as well as ground floor, but totems don't generate power - trees still do. So we can produce more power than cities, by trading off defense, or we can trade off some/all of our extra power generation for protecting our land.
Afternote - didn't see that it takes ten minutes to destroy a statue. Seriously? No - that should be brought down to the equivalent of cutting a tree, or treecutting brought up to match that, if they're made equivalent mechanics.
Some things to note:
1. Totems originally were only carvable by druids, which brought up the problem of lack of numbers to carve elders, and so by report 1298, it was changed to allow any Crow or Stag users to do so. If it is -still- a numbers issue (which frankly it shouldnt) then it could always be asked for something else. Having trans arts isnt exactly all that common, and only long-standing players would have that. Could always ask for Trans art to allow carving totems too I suppose.
2. Enchanting a statue is far longer than 10 mins, I would know from all the groaning I hear when it is being done. I believe it is more along the lines of 20 mins. If the issue of "Decay vs revert" is brought up, then can always make it more equal.
3. You brought up a point which seems to still be dismissed (apparently for focus on hatred, oh my). Totems are technically (currently) -not- required for defense nor for any purpose other than free power. This entire upheavel about it is based on the idea "We cant win against them! This isnt fair". Frankly even if totems were made runable, people would still be whining. Even if chopping was made longer, they'd still be whining. The only 'apparent' solution in Xenthos eyes is to completely delete the conflict by making elders invulnerable...because that makes sense (?).
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
But apparently it is more factual to throw random low numbers for support of a claim .
It is more factual to put in the actual number than to randomly guess based on groaning, yes.
However, the truly hilarious part here? You say that the number is longer. You believe that it is 20 minutes, and you want totem carving to take the same amount of time. That means, for a cluster of 300 Elders, you want Communes to spend 100 hours out of every 300 (12.5 RL days being the conversion rate, for a total of 33% of the entire time!) doing nothing but standing around watching channeled actions as they carve trees.
You think that's fair. You think that's balanced. And you wonder why we call you out on your obvious hatred.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Two wrongs don't make a right, I don't know what to tell you. If you have justify your nonsensical word vomit by saying "you started it," that probably explains why we're having a problem to begin with. It's fairly simple thing to carve a statue and state definitively how long it is. Not that it really matters in the context of the larger discussion, it's just a minor detail you are harping on to score points without presenting any real substance as to why totems, which are definitively different from statues, should have the same requirements of statues without any of the benefits.
PS: He is also completely ignoring that there is an ability in Arts to repair statues and prevent them from decaying, because it does not fit his narrative.
Syntax: UPKEEP <PAINTING|STATUE> If works of art are not properly kept and maintained, they will be destroyed on their own. Upkeeping will extend the decay time. Ingredients: Painting: full palette of paint Statue: marble 1
There is no decay vs. revert disparity right now, because the statues never have to decay. It takes as long to upkeep a statue as to carve an elder. Yet he would like it so that Communes need to do a channeled action every time a totem reverts, while cities can keep on doing a simple fix and move on (at a much more drawn-out rate, since it only needs to be done every 200 or so RL days instead of every 12.5).
I'm all for annoying repetitive chores being removed from the game, honestly. So if it takes 20 minutes to enchant a statue, maybe that time needs to get cut significantly. Totem carving seems to be a fairly reasonable time frame, multiply the time out and we have a maximum upper bound for what it should take - and I'd be fine with it taking less.
If totems aren't intended to be an equivalent to statues, then we need an equivalent to statues. Given they can be runed just like statues are, it seems a fair assumption they're supposed to be an equivalent, and thus should be made to work similarly to statues. I.E. no requirement for a bond to be useful. I'd say making them hit trees just gives us a chance to actually catch attackers, and if they no longer generate power, isn't that unreasonable - I don't hear about rooftop raids in cities, or rooftops being a significant edge in escaping a conflict, but if they are then perhaps statues ought to hit rooftops too.
I can see how making elders/totems invulnerable isn't really a reasonable solution on its own - remove the power gain, and then sure, but then you may as well just remove trees entirely because they no longer do anything. Making totems not give power but elders still do, along with making totems hit trees, would give us reason to be working and caring for our forest, give some actual decisions for a commune to make on whether or not/how much they want to participate in this 'conflict' avenue, and make it so there's still some possibility of raids working, if they're willing to take the risks.
Couple that with the nexus ironbark power, which should be a general security ability, and maybe something to prevent flight (which all orgs should get if it happens at all), and an org that plans well could very fairly minimize windows of attack to when there's at least a couple of people available to defend, and if they work together effectively, then a single attacker is unlikely to escape unscathed, but a coordinated group have a good chance.
I mean - ideally, raids just wouldn't happen when nobody's about. If you're looking for a fight, you'd be -trying- to poke when people are about, and leaving if nobody responds - if you're just trying to grief, then admins should be stepping in with punitive measures, not mechanics to counter griefing. But since we don't live in an ideal world, giving orgs the ability to at least plan and decide when they're vulnerable seems the best bet. It won't prevent determined griefers from finding something else to screw with, but it'll at least skew the effort:effect ratio back into some sort of balance.
Simply put, one person should not be able to easily cause effects that prompt several other players to just not bother logging in because they don't want to have to deal with the mess. If it takes one person ten seconds to start it should not take five people an hour to fix. Or an entire org six weeks, in the case of chopping.
Ridiculous. Arcanis is stating outright that he is cutting trees to do nothing but create work for a group of players for griefing's sake. He even has the gall to talk down to Ssaliss, disparaging him for not knowing about combat. Ironically, Ssaliss probably knows more than him just by virtue of Ssaliss not being blinded to his own faults by stomach churning, gag-worthy arrogance. Case in point, we have the assertion that killing daughters do nothing, but in the same breath, killing demons are equated - no, elevated above choppinh trees. Guess what, killing demons do 'nothing' either, they even respawn on their own. But no, it is apparently so god damn griefy that we are even comparing raiding cosmic to raiding prime forests to chop elders. wow.
Why are we even considering keeping this mechanic when we have a clear example of why its existence is an invitation to empower these kind of self-centered, juvenile egomaniacs?
I didn't want to say anything, but him talking down to Ssaliss was like Tetra levels of arrogant. It hurt my heart.
Can we as a forum community collectively agree to stop feeding Arcanis? It upsets @Lerad and his rebuttal posting and I feel like that's about 90% of the reason we all even read threads anymore.
Pretty sure Lerad and Xenthos are at the lines of:
You complain totems arent like statues, we say totems are easier to carve than enchanting a statue, so would have to be made harder. You complain that extending their time isnt fair, we say to increase their day revert time. You complain again with Your apparent solution being "Make elders invulnerable and give us free power or bust". Please
You wont get anywhere with that mentality. Likely ending up like poor J.D there.
Not that I mind in the end. You're basically tightening your own noose here if you arent willing to compromise. This reminds me a lot of Xenthos' years of complaining about Maeve's brand and wanting his way or bust....that has ended well so far.
-5
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited September 2015
UH EXCUSE ME. Drag queens are not 10%. How dare you.
Yes, please continue ignoring the fact that your claim of statues taking 20 minutes to enchant was just proven wrong. With facts.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
There is indeed someone unwilling to compromise here, but it's not us.
Hint: It is the guy who says he believes Communes should have to spend 100 hours out of every 300 performing channeled actions and unable to actually do anything else during that time.
Who is this "we"? You. Check the report, the solutions had wide support from all envoys who commented. The only discussions and debates were on the exact mechanics peripheral to the central solution, involving the specifics of how power generation would be equalized in the aftermath of the core solutions. No one has made compelling, coherent, or rational arguments supporting the current iteration of totems 'conflict', while there have been many such arguments presenting how the system is a detriment to the game. When status quo bias, sunk costs, and fundamental misunderstandings of the mechanic and its effects are stripped away, I find it hard to foresee there being a coherent argument for maintaining the existing system.
If you can prove me (and everyone else) wrong, go ahead: Stop quibbling about little (and often flat wrong) details and present an argument that the current mechanic adds something fun, interesting, compelling, or important to the game that outweighs the significant downsides that have been presented. Put up or shut up.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
This was an edit, but I'll just double post with it:
To bring things back to actual discussion - My approximate numbers from the first page on how much power you lose versus how much it costs to use this discretionary were wrong. The stages of growing trees generate a lot more power than I estimated, meaning that it will take a higher number of trees being potentially chopped to make the discretionary worth it per power cost of the discretionary- so that even with 100 less power cost, my estimate of 10 or more trees needing to get chopped per hour to counterbalance having the discretionary each hour remains correct. Back of the napkin math tells me you'll lose from ~11 to ~18 power TOTAL per totem chopped spread over three to four days, depending on the timing and how fast you can raise the new trees. In other words, if you had ten chopped at any point, you lose just about the same as using the discretionary once, for a single hour. Using it for only one hour is (of course) totally useless, so the actual numbers the org not using it would need to lose to remain even with the org that is using it to any regularity are unreasonably high.
If there is no desire to go through with any of the solutions in report 1374, can there please be a pow-wow to brainstorm solutions? Ironbark is not a solution. Heck, as pointed out in report 1374, that report's solutions are not necessarily the end of the line for totem mechanics, it's just the best and cleanest way to fix the problem so that we can (to extend the 'bandaid' metaphor) stem the hemorrhaging and clean the wound enough to allow reconstructive surgry later.
There is indeed someone unwilling to compromise here, but it's not us.
Hint: It is the guy who says he believes Communes should have to spend 100 hours out of every 300 performing channeled actions and unable to actually do anything else during that time.
Which...is basically statues.
You're not reading anymore, your just typing out of rage. Not very professional.
I said if you want to make elders into statues, then fine, but all the cons of statue making would have to go with it.
As for statues not being long, frankly I recall it being so, I'd have to check with certain people that update Mag statues. However point still stands, want totems to become statues, then the work will have to go into it too, including them still being removeable (indestructible elder trees, lols).
Statues aren't 100 hours every 300... They're more like 100 hours every 6000. Assuming, of course, that you have 300 statues (which odds are, you don't) and that they take 20 minutes each (which, apparently, they don't). Also assuming that you can't simply use Upkeep on them.
There is indeed someone unwilling to compromise here, but it's not us.
Hint: It is the guy who says he believes Communes should have to spend 100 hours out of every 300 performing channeled actions and unable to actually do anything else during that time.
Which...is basically statues.
You're not reading anymore, your just typing out of rage. Not very professional.
I said if you want to make elders into statues, then fine, but all the cons of statue making would have to go with it.
As for statues not being long, frankly I recall it being so, I'd have to check with certain people that update Mag statues. However point still stands, want totems to become statues, then the work will have to go into it too, including them still being removeable (indestructible elder trees, lols).
I am not typing out of rage. I also know how to spell "you're".
Your idea of " compromise" is like this: "All right, Serenguard. We know how much you hate the Magnolia quest, so we are removing it. Instead, you have to have a guild member standing at the lock for 8 hours every RL day channeling into it or it will break. Oh, you don't like that? YOU DO NOT WANT TO COMPROMISE!" Starting from an absurdly illogical position does not work if you actually want people to consider your ideas (but it is okay, we all know that you are just posting in the hopes of inciting rage and do not actually care about what you are saying. So sorry to disappoint you! Wait, no I'm not).
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Whoa whoa whoa, leave my poor little kinnies out of this .
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
3
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited September 2015
He's beyond hope and this is a monumental waste of time. He really does not even possess the most fundamental grasp of the topic. If he did, if he had bothered to read the report or the majority of the discussions that have taken place on this topic, he would understand Communes would actually really love statues and have no problems with removing the power gains from totems to do so. He has the perception (delusion?) that totems are better than statues, and is assuming we, too, believe that and are trying to Hannah Montana it and get the Best of Both Worlds. You want to give us statues? Great. Perfect. Statue the shit out of the communes.
If he's not going to take the time to understand the topic at hand, to bother with even a peripheral glance at the existing arguments, there's no purpose in engaging with him further. It's simple.
It is also obvious to anyone reading that he is off his rocker. He really just said that all cities spend 8 hours every day doing statue upkeep. Uh huh.
Can we focus on the issue and less on targeting players? Moderators please.
There is a huge list of conflict things you could look at, and if desired we could make a much larger topic but everything should then be acknowledged on a level by level change. For instance:
- Demons are weak, daughters are very powerful. Daughters are often in large groups in a specific area (they aren't plane wide like demons), making them harder.
- Statues don't need routine carving. You spend a lot of time once to get a long lasting thing. Totems can be carved but can be annoying because of maintenance.
- Liveforest and ripple are both terribly powerful and can solo kill fighting. Both should be moved or replaced. I would say the same for flux though too.
- Trees make huge amounts of passive power....... there is no version for cities. (Keep in mind drums give power just like the monuments and such as I recall).
- The ritual in each forest is worth hundreds of power, jars give 0, giving very large potential power gains from inside the commune itself.
I mean we could cover problems all day, but I was just focusing on the chopping vs power issue. Remove both aspects, as raiding is hardly a thing as is and this solves some disparities.
I would be interested to know if any orgs stack to prevent chopping for long periods or how much it is used.
I will admit some bias here, I have been in forests, cities, etc. I find that the passive generation was always just excess since I did the quest for 500 power (total, 250 per) fairly often with people and we had no issues bringing in essence. I don't like that it looks like communes get a cushy 3K power (that is over a million per real life year) so readily. I say readily, not easily, because carving is a hassle, I remember listening to Elanorwen talk about setting routine times to run around and carve and that is a CHORE, not something game like. It was work, and it sucks.
While I'm not an envoy, @Estarra, fires also happen on Ethereal planes of the communes as well. Are you also going to be adjusting it to happen on either prime or ethereal?
The apple is cold, crisp, and sour as the juices fill your mouth. As you consume the fruit, you glimpse, for a moment, a massive, shadowy figure, Her snow-white hair framing a perfect, icy-eyed visage. Beneath you, a vast, perfect web of silken strands lies - and, for a moment, you realize that you too are part of it, weaver and strand both - and home.
Malarious, the problem there is that I do not believe that a power vs. chopping comparison is valid because there are so many other advantages / disadvantages thrown into the mix. If you want to remove the power, you really should go all-in and just make them completely equal in all aspects. If you want to keep them unique, then just taking the power generation away skews the balance between the two further, it does not close the gap.
The simplest solution is still to either just remove chopping entirely (as I said, the game did not break when nobody was chopping them) or make it a channeled action that takes as long as destroying a statue (completely negates hit and run, and seems pretty fair given that growing a totem takes RL days while building and enchanting a statue takes less than 10 minutes).
I'm actually amused that arcanis compared chop-and-run to kill a demon/angel and run.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Malarious, the problem there is that I do not believe that a power vs. chopping comparison is valid because there are so many other advantages / disadvantages thrown into the mix. If you want to remove the power, you really should go all-in and just make them completely equal in all aspects. If you want to keep them unique, then just taking the power generation away skews the balance between the two further, it does not close the gap.
The simplest solution is still to either just remove chopping entirely (as I said, the game did not break when nobody was chopping them) or make it a channeled action that takes as long as destroying a statue (completely negates hit and run, and seems pretty fair given that growing a totem takes RL days while building and enchanting a statue takes less than 10 minutes).
In case you only thought I meant remove power generation, I also want to remove chopping. The power generation isn't needed, and raiding prime shouldn't really be a thing in my opinion. It usually just results in grief, like melding collegiums, or running around for 30 minutes without anyone dying, etc.
Comments
Some things to note:
1. Totems originally were only carvable by druids, which brought up the problem of lack of numbers to carve elders, and so by report 1298, it was changed to allow any Crow or Stag users to do so. If it is -still- a numbers issue (which frankly it shouldnt) then it could always be asked for something else. Having trans arts isnt exactly all that common, and only long-standing players would have that. Could always ask for Trans art to allow carving totems too I suppose.
2. Enchanting a statue is far longer than 10 mins, I would know from all the groaning I hear when it is being done. I believe it is more along the lines of 20 mins. If the issue of "Decay vs revert" is brought up, then can always make it more equal.
3. You brought up a point which seems to still be dismissed (apparently for focus on hatred, oh my). Totems are technically (currently) -not- required for defense nor for any purpose other than free power. This entire upheavel about it is based on the idea "We cant win against them! This isnt fair". Frankly even if totems were made runable, people would still be whining. Even if chopping was made longer, they'd still be whining. The only 'apparent' solution in Xenthos eyes is to completely delete the conflict by making elders invulnerable...because that makes sense (?).
Scientific, that.
But apparently it is more factual to throw random low numbers for support of a claim
However, the truly hilarious part here? You say that the number is longer. You believe that it is 20 minutes, and you want totem carving to take the same amount of time. That means, for a cluster of 300 Elders, you want Communes to spend 100 hours out of every 300 (12.5 RL days being the conversion rate, for a total of 33% of the entire time!) doing nothing but standing around watching channeled actions as they carve trees.
You think that's fair. You think that's balanced. And you wonder why we call you out on your obvious hatred.
Syntax: UPKEEP <PAINTING|STATUE>
If works of art are not properly kept and maintained, they will be destroyed on their own. Upkeeping will extend the decay time.
Ingredients:
Painting: full palette of paint
Statue: marble 1
There is no decay vs. revert disparity right now, because the statues never have to decay. It takes as long to upkeep a statue as to carve an elder. Yet he would like it so that Communes need to do a channeled action every time a totem reverts, while cities can keep on doing a simple fix and move on (at a much more drawn-out rate, since it only needs to be done every 200 or so RL days instead of every 12.5).
You complain totems arent like statues, we say totems are easier to carve than enchanting a statue, so would have to be made harder. You complain that extending their time isnt fair, we say to increase their day revert time. You complain again with Your apparent solution being "Make elders invulnerable and give us free power or bust". Please
You wont get anywhere with that mentality. Likely ending up like poor J.D there.
Not that I mind in the end. You're basically tightening your own noose here if you arent willing to compromise. This reminds me a lot of Xenthos' years of complaining about Maeve's brand and wanting his way or bust....that has ended well so far.
Hint: It is the guy who says he believes Communes should have to spend 100 hours out of every 300 performing channeled actions and unable to actually do anything else during that time.
If you can prove me (and everyone else) wrong, go ahead: Stop quibbling about little (and often flat wrong) details and present an argument that the current mechanic adds something fun, interesting, compelling, or important to the game that outweighs the significant downsides that have been presented. Put up or shut up.
If there is no desire to go through with any of the solutions in report 1374, can there please be a pow-wow to brainstorm solutions? Ironbark is not a solution. Heck, as pointed out in report 1374, that report's solutions are not necessarily the end of the line for totem mechanics, it's just the best and cleanest way to fix the problem so that we can (to extend the 'bandaid' metaphor) stem the hemorrhaging and clean the wound enough to allow reconstructive surgry later.
Which...is basically statues.
You're not reading anymore, your just typing out of rage. Not very professional.
I said if you want to make elders into statues, then fine, but all the cons of statue making would have to go with it.
As for statues not being long, frankly I recall it being so, I'd have to check with certain people that update Mag statues. However point still stands, want totems to become statues, then the work will have to go into it too, including them still being removeable (indestructible elder trees, lols).
Which...is basically statues.
You're not reading anymore, your just typing out of rage. Not very professional.
I said if you want to make elders into statues, then fine, but all the cons of statue making would have to go with it.
As for statues not being long, frankly I recall it being so, I'd have to check with certain people that update Mag statues. However point still stands, want totems to become statues, then the work will have to go into it too, including them still being removeable (indestructible elder trees, lols).
I am not typing out of rage. I also know how to spell "you're".
Your idea of " compromise" is like this: "All right, Serenguard. We know how much you hate the Magnolia quest, so we are removing it. Instead, you have to have a guild member standing at the lock for 8 hours every RL day channeling into it or it will break. Oh, you don't like that? YOU DO NOT WANT TO COMPROMISE!" Starting from an absurdly illogical position does not work if you actually want people to consider your ideas (but it is okay, we all know that you are just posting in the hopes of inciting rage and do not actually care about what you are saying. So sorry to disappoint you! Wait, no I'm not).
The simplest solution is still to either just remove chopping entirely (as I said, the game did not break when nobody was chopping them) or make it a channeled action that takes as long as destroying a statue (completely negates hit and run, and seems pretty fair given that growing a totem takes RL days while building and enchanting a statue takes less than 10 minutes).