A Short - Post newbie Feedback of Lusternia

Aeldra

I've been doing that ever since I've played muds, when I thought I was getting out of the 'newbie' phase and into 'playing okayish' phase, I would write a short review of my most liked and most disliked things, in hope that they are useful for anybody.

PRO:
- The depth of the lore
- Complexity and diversity of the quests
- Interesting conflict potential
- An insane amount of activity to be had
- A lot of helpful people in org
- Lot's of diversity with afflictions, weird effects and other shenanigans
- generally creative setting with a huge world that can be enjoyed for exploring

CONTRA:
- The sheer amount of hate the community does muster OOCly against each other, the sheer spitefulness people act in game and the willingness to grieve others for own enjoyment. That's for all the game, not for one faction, mind you.
- A lot of conflict being only driven by PK for the reason of PK. There's to my knowledge no overthrows, no forgeries or secret alliances, no hidden plots, no secret agendas, nothing like that. It's all straight up combat and that's not even followed up or preceded by any graspable atmosphere. Just "You enemy, You die". Sure you can argue that is RP too, but for me that was a little bit of a culture shock, something am not used to and something that feels totally alien to me. Also, this is, of course a generalisation and there are examples where it is better...

Short summary, I think that lusternia as a game has a lot of potential and could have a lot of enjoyment for everybody, plus being one of those games where the conflict and RP really draws you in and doesn't let go. Sadly, a large part of that potential remains unused because of the established playing culture. Maybe it's just my point of view and others do totally enjoy this. But this is my feedback.

Last but not least, I have posted this after long thinking. Save yourself your spite and your hate, please. Am not looking for a flame war or some accusations. I am offering you the point of view of someone who is getting out of the newbie phase.

Ayisdra

Aeldra said:

I've been doing that ever since I've played muds, when I thought I was getting out of the 'newbie' phase and into 'playing okayish' phase, I would write a short review of my most liked and most disliked things, in hope that they are useful for anybody.
CONTRA:
- The sheer amount of hate the community does muster OOCly against each other, the sheer spitefulness people act in game and the willingness to grieve others for own enjoyment. That's for all the game, not for one faction, mind you.
- A lot of conflict being only driven by PK for the reason of PK. There's to my knowledge no overthrows, no forgeries or secret alliances, no hidden plots, no secret agendas, nothing like that. It's all straight up combat and that's not even followed up or preceded by any graspable atmosphere. Just "You enemy, You die". Sure you can argue that is RP too, but for me that was a little bit of a culture shock, something am not used to and something that feels totally alien to me. Also, this is, of course a generalisation and there are examples where it is better...

On the hate - people are passionate about the game and their org. They are heavily invest in things. Some people only can have fun in the game if they are PKing people and that the other person may be getting griefed. Like it or not, drama is something that fuels some people. It is what people like to see and watch.

On conflict, there is no way to overthrow really. All leaders are elected so you can't just force your way into that. Any other position of worth is appointed, so you can't overthrow your way into that. Secret alliances just don't really work. Most actions would reveal this secret alliance too quickly for it to be worthwhile. The game doesn't really support uneven alliances for long either. Sure, people could gang up and make it a 5v1 thing (an extreme case) but most would feel guilty ooc about this because of the unfairness that it creates for that one.

This was talked about a in the RP vs PK thread, but combat doesn't really mix with RP midfights. Most people will attack you because your org is at war with them. And why should anyone need another reason to fight someone - you are working for the enemy, everything you stand and believe is against the other side's own values.

Aeldra

Ayisdra said:

Aeldra said:

I've been doing that ever since I've played muds, when I thought I was getting out of the 'newbie' phase and into 'playing okayish' phase, I would write a short review of my most liked and most disliked things, in hope that they are useful for anybody.
CONTRA:
- The sheer amount of hate the community does muster OOCly against each other, the sheer spitefulness people act in game and the willingness to grieve others for own enjoyment. That's for all the game, not for one faction, mind you.
- A lot of conflict being only driven by PK for the reason of PK. There's to my knowledge no overthrows, no forgeries or secret alliances, no hidden plots, no secret agendas, nothing like that. It's all straight up combat and that's not even followed up or preceded by any graspable atmosphere. Just "You enemy, You die". Sure you can argue that is RP too, but for me that was a little bit of a culture shock, something am not used to and something that feels totally alien to me. Also, this is, of course a generalisation and there are examples where it is better...

On the hate - people are passionate about the game and their org. They are heavily invest in things. Some people only can have fun in the game if they are PKing people and that the other person may be getting griefed. Like it or not, drama is something that fuels some people. It is what people like to see and watch.

On conflict, there is no way to overthrow really. All leaders are elected so you can't just force your way into that. Any other position of worth is appointed, so you can't overthrow your way into that. Secret alliances just don't really work. Most actions would reveal this secret alliance too quickly for it to be worthwhile. The game doesn't really support uneven alliances for long either. Sure, people could gang up and make it a 5v1 thing (an extreme case) but most would feel guilty ooc about this because of the unfairness that it creates for that one.

This was talked about a in the RP vs PK thread, but combat doesn't really mix with RP midfights. Most people will attack you because your org is at war with them. And why should anyone need another reason to fight someone - you are working for the enemy, everything you stand and believe is against the other side's own values.

Hate: Sure, passion is generally good, so is drama. As long as it's IC. OOC hate? In my opinion not on the level that's displayed daily on this forums, it's harmful. But then, I present merely how I felt and what I perceived.

On PK/RP. I know these justifications from that thread, yes. And sure, some of it is given to the nature of the game, but then, I'm giving feedback, from my point of view. I was not talking about PK with griefing either.

Arcanis

A lovely summary and I agree with many of the points you brought up.

As you are a new player to this game, I wish to know if you felt that the mechanics and conflict systems in place were overbearing or alright? Im curious to see other people's outside perspective of whether the current multitude of conflict systems in Lusternia is a good thing or suffocating.

Aeldra

Arcanis said:

A lovely summary and I agree with many of the points you brought up.

As you are a new player to this game, I wish to know if you felt that the mechanics and conflict systems in place were overbearing or alright? Im curious to see other people's outside perspective of whether the current multitude of conflict systems in Lusternia is a good thing or suffocating.

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure I understand you correctly. I generally love the diversity of the things that's happening on conflict base (peaceful village revolts , wildnodes , etc). I think some of it is designed for more people per org then we currently have (as celest sees with some areas, we simply have not enough people active in the org at times to compete meaningfully).

So, I think, at first they are overwhelming, but they are also a great way to introduce people to the conflict that is inherent with Lusternia. I still remember, five days playing the game and I was on a wildnode event. I was not in active combat, but I had a meaningful task, felt needed, was great. Next day, village revolt... all these little things that drive the conflict, gave me the feeling that my character was actually important and could contribute even being as small and squishy as she was.

edit: Also, the multitude gives you a chance to actually find a niche that appeals to you and which you look forward to because you are good at it and can contribute.

Pejat

I have to largely agree with what you are saying. However, I want to point out that there is a lot more than PK for PK's sake. My character is almost 90, and I have purposely avoided getting into PKing, yet I still play far too much. There are village revolts, debating, aetherflares, writing scholarly books, writing literary books, writing and producing plays(Cultural Center). Those are just the regularly occurring variations on conflict. If you want to make more intricate RP conflict that isn't bound by a number system, go for it. You can even SAY TO <NPC> every so often for a chance that an admin will hear you and start playing along.

As for the hate, I think in all things, there is always the "vocal minority." There are plenty of people out there who get along fine with everyone, including their IC bitter enemies. They just aren't shouting on the forums about how neutral they are about their enemies. Sometimes people get very attached to the conflict of this game and the forum is the typical place where venting happens. Staying away from the forums and finding cool people to RP with is my suggestion. Ignorance is bliss!

Admittedly, Lusternia, is my first MUD. I am not sure how much calmer other places are in comparison. You likely know more in that regard. I just wanted to make it known that it is easy to play Lusternia nearly 24/7, never do PK, and still have far too much left undone ._.

Siam

The conflict roleplay between the forests is very solid. The secret alliance-betrayal thing has been done before and the orgs went down very hard on most of the people involved. "Traitors" usually end up being pariahs because no one likes people leaking stuff to other orgs.

Synkarin

For the record, I think this so called OOC hate is a pretty strong word.

I don't get along with certain people, and certainly don't agree with their ideas on balance, the strength of certain skills etc. but I don't actually hate anyone. 

I know @Maligorn will throw out a hate boner for me quite often, but we're still able to have civil discussions with each other about stuff.

I think some people really just need thicker skins, not everything can be lubby dubby all the time, and in a game where conflict is a central core, passions run high, blood boils and people will get angry. It's going to happen, just shrug it off. 

Maligorn

Damned hate boners.

Shuyin

I can't even tell whether or not there's actual hate involved when any hint of anything more...passionate is quickly deleted, warned, jailed, and told to email support.

Silvanus

I'm trying to find this PK that's mentioned. I wish there was as much conflict as people claim.

Shuyin

Oh that too. Haven't seen a revolt in months

Allyrianne

Aeldra said:

CONTRA:
- The sheer amount of hate the community does muster OOCly against each other, the sheer spitefulness people act in game and the willingness to grieve others for own enjoyment. That's for all the game, not for one faction, mind you.
- A lot of conflict being only driven by PK for the reason of PK. There's to my knowledge no overthrows, no forgeries or secret alliances, no hidden plots, no secret agendas, nothing like that. It's all straight up combat and that's not even followed up or preceded by any graspable atmosphere. Just "You enemy, You die". Sure you can argue that is RP too, but for me that was a little bit of a culture shock, something am not used to and something that feels totally alien to me. Also, this is, of course a generalisation and there are examples where it is better...

Maybe I'm just oblivious with my head in the clouds, but despite the heated nature of some venting forum posts from a handful of individuals, the vast majority of the playerbase does not actually foster large amounts of ooc hatred for anyone. Only a small fraction of those who play Lusternia post or follow the forums regularly. An even smaller fraction of them care very passionately about certain issues or are prone to blowing off steam here. It may be worth considering taking a break from the forums, or maybe going silent on an ooc clan if you find that one of these are making you feel this way. There's honestly a lot of positivity on the forums (compared to other muds I have participated in), but if the negativity is affecting your enjoyment of ic, maybe take a breather. You may find you miss out on a lot less than you would have expected.

Some of the avenues (overthrows, forgeries, secret alliances, hidden plots) you've described do exist (and risk being just as oocly toxic as pk at its griefiest.) They're just not as blatantly accessible to newcomers in New Celest as getting pulled into pk conflict quests. As someone who has been playing Lusternia for a bit now (although admittedly not with a firsthand view to this particular conflict), the intensity of focus on the sea battle does fluctuate. It's just been in high gear recently due to a combination of alliances and the right combination of people in opposing orgs for it to get heated.

One of the best things you can do is pursue the avenues of rp and conflict you're interested in. Find someone in Mag who will send you tainted letters and argue with you. Nose in on those stinking forests and argue about why all fae should be given to Raziela for the Good of the Basin. Join an Order (orders can be amazing for secrets and plotting that does not directly involve pk, although it can depend a lot on the Divine in particular and how swamped they are with life, admin responsibilities, what have you). Find some people who seem cool on the other side and get to know them ooc. Explore lesser known and less conflict fueling quests that are still in line with your org's rp. Teach them to other members of your org. Get involved in propaganda, revitalize Celest's stage, etc, etc.

Cyndarin

Welcome! Glad to have you.

I don't think people really hate each other. I mean, many of us have a flair for the dramatic (your post included) but our first stop on the disagreement train shouldn't always be Rhetoric Station. Rarely do people actually "hate" one another or take OOC disagreements to the game. 

I'm thinking there's more to this post than you're letting on, the last little paragraph is certainly a little unusual. Either way, stick around and I'm sure you'll find all the secret alliances, plots, and agendas your heart desires. There's a lot out there.

Lerad

If you've played any other non ire mud, you'll know most ire muds are in the top ten, if not top five, for rp'd pk. You could probably include mmos and still get the same.

Arcanis

Celina said:

Welcome! Glad to have you.

I don't think people really hate each other. I mean, many of us have a flair for the dramatic (your post included) but our first stop on the disagreement train shouldn't always be Rhetoric Station. Rarely do people actually "hate" one another or take OOC disagreements to the game. 

I'm thinking there's more to this post than you're letting on, the last little paragraph is certainly a little unusual. Either way, stick around and I'm sure you'll find all the secret alliances, plots, and agendas your heart desires. There's a lot out there.

Does that mean you lub me Celina?

Aeldra

I am actually stunned (in a good way) by the amount of well meant replies I received for this. Maybe my perception is indeed wrong on this, and if so, I'm glad for it, because I am actually enjoying my stay here.

As I said, I have done this for every mud I've played so far and I am actually happy that I got this many good and well meant responses. The first time I jumped into one of those threads (It was the tweets thread) I was shocked by how people flung at each other. But sure, drama's often good and passion about your role is always a good thing.

@Celina Yep, flair for the dramatic, guilty as charged. I have no intention of going anywhere. As for more to it then I let on, of course, the "CONTRA" points are motivated by much I've watched / read here on the forums and what I've witnessed in game. There's a certain level of frustration with me, as I've expressed in other, especially my cay thread. But I had no intention to make this about those particular issues, it is merely the two things that caught myself as the most 'negative' about the game. Subjective views of course.

@Synkarin I've seen a lot of stuff people been throwing on each other, heard some people comment on others, etc. I had the feeling it's hate. Maybe am mistaken.

Arcanis

in Truth, you werent completely wrong. The latest generations of players have focused their actions more on harming others for the sake of harming them, rather than for any reason or purpose. This goes from chasing people influencing around and trying to debate them (classy), to purposely breaking a quest they are doing that has no significance or relation to your own Org, just to spite them. This isnt to say everyone is like this, nor is he venom only focused on the forums, it will however be reflected on the forums since it is an avenue of public talk and some will find it a good way to throw jabs around, it is generally best to ignore those (unless they are funny). Best thing to do about the hostility is just turn a blind eye and do your own thing really.

Cyndarin

Arcanis said:

Celina said:

Welcome! Glad to have you.

I don't think people really hate each other. I mean, many of us have a flair for the dramatic (your post included) but our first stop on the disagreement train shouldn't always be Rhetoric Station. Rarely do people actually "hate" one another or take OOC disagreements to the game. 

I'm thinking there's more to this post than you're letting on, the last little paragraph is certainly a little unusual. Either way, stick around and I'm sure you'll find all the secret alliances, plots, and agendas your heart desires. There's a lot out there.

Does that mean you lub me Celina?

Siam

I am glad "hate boner" has become a thing.

Synkarin

Arcanis said:

in Truth, you werent completely wrong. The latest generations of players have focused their actions more on harming others for the sake of harming them, rather than for any reason or purpose. This goes from chasing people influencing around and trying to debate them (classy), to purposely breaking a quest they are doing that has no significance or relation to your own Org, just to spite them. This isnt to say everyone is like this, nor is he venom only focused on the forums, it will however be reflected on the forums since it is an avenue of public talk and some will find it a good way to throw jabs around, it is generally best to ignore those (unless they are funny). Best thing to do about the hostility is just turn a blind eye and do your own thing really.

I don't find this to be true at all. Usually if someone is doing something to make someone else's life difficult, there's a reason behind it. There's always two sides to the story. Usually the people with this kind of 'holier than thou' or 'can't do any wrong' mentality @Arcanis is displaying here are the worst offenders and typically deserve stuff like this the most. But that's just typical.

Tarkenton

http://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/90899/#Comment_90899

Edit: wrong wording. Not hate bonerific at all, this guy.

Cyndarin

Arcanis said:

 latest generations of players have focused their actions more on harming others for the sake of harming them, rather than for any reason or purpose. 

To be entirely fair to Arcanis, he's describing himself. So he's not completely wrong. 

Yet we don't hate him! Hate is just a really strong word. Players, for the most part, might strongly dislike certain other players (I'm certain some players can't stand me), but rarely do you meet one that genuinely desires bad things to happen to another. The ones that do, or express that they do, get ban hammered and shrubbed pretty quickly. 

Shuyin

FYI I get more RL death threats from role players than PKers. Funny that.

Arcanis

Lol, funny enough, those actions are -not- done to me (or havent in some time), but to several others. Although @Synkarin you havent exactly been that active of late and I can imagine why you'd find this all surprising. Admittedly it is mostly Mags that are targetted by certain individuals in Celest that are doing such things, which is perhaps why Aeldra is stating she is seeing general hatred. It is funny to think that the "evil org (yes not evil blah blah)" is -not- the one going out of their way to grief.

Everiine

Ladies and gentleman, Aeldra's point. You can't even talk about this thread without subtle jabs at each other.

Cyndarin

So funny! Was that before or after you chopped trees for 6 RL months just to spite Xenthos?

Kaalak

Celina said:

Arcanis said:

 latest generations of players have focused their actions more on harming others for the sake of harming them, rather than for any reason or purpose. 

To be entirely fair to Arcanis, he's describing himself. So he's not completely wrong. 

Yet we don't hate him! Hate is just a really strong word. Players, for the most part, might strongly dislike certain other players (I'm certain some players can't stand me), but rarely do you meet one that genuinely desires bad things to happen to another. The ones that do, or express that they do, get ban hammered and shrubbed pretty quickly. 

This really isn't the case. Individuals who express genuine hate to each other can still play for months. There is enough evidence on pastebin to document this.  But this isn't a new problem. 

Arcanis said:

Lol, funny enough, those actions are -not- done to me (or havent in some time), but to several others. Although @Synkarin you havent exactly been that active of late and I can imagine why you'd find this all surprising. Admittedly it is mostly Mags that are targetted by certain individuals in Celest that are doing such things, which is perhaps why Aeldra is stating she is seeing general hatred. It is funny to think that the "evil org (yes not evil blah blah)" is -not- the one going out of their way to grief.

I disagree with this in part.  I cannot speak to individuals in Celest hating and targeting players of Mags unless you are referring to years long grudges by players who are rarely around in on their main character. 

You do have personal and direct evidence however Arcanis to know that several players of Magnagora past and present and still active in IRE do have in real life personal grudges against each other. 

Sylandra

Nice to meet you! I hope you're enjoying Lusternia so far despite your con list.

Unfortunately, squabbling is inevitable. Lusternia is not a particularly large game, and it's easy to get into small town mentalities. If those mentalities are messing with your RL headspace, taking a break is honestly the best way to go. I have been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. I'd say that distance is the most effective medicine for e-drama that there is.

But in the event that someone is being hated and harassed OOCly to the point that they fear for their safety, I 100% advocate issuing the matter to the admin and using snub. We throw around the words "hate," "griefing," and "toxic" so much that they kind of lose meaning, but these extreme cases do happen, albeit rarely, and the admin do take them seriously. I'd like to think these cases are the exception, though, and not the rule.

Kaalak

For the record there is one example that I know of where a in real life concern was addressed by the administration (not the volunteer administration, IRE owners and such) by banning a player. It was a sad state of affairs, and it really didn't necessarily involve hate as much as mental illness but what was done was done out of legitimate concern and the owners acted laudably. 

Cyndarin

Everiine said:

Ladies and gentleman, Aeldra's point. You can't even talk about this thread without subtle jabs at each other.

Actually, I think it really undermines the complaint that people hate one another. People are fully capable of jabbing at one another without actual hatred and ill will. It's important to distinguish the two. I think mischaracterizing the community as "hateful" just for making jabs and being sassy is far more harmful than people just not getting along. 

People need to lighten up and stop trying to police everyone to their personal standards. Live and let live. Paint with all the colors of the wind. Etc etc.

 There's a grey area between hatred and hugs.