Monks

Tarkenton

So, it may feel like jumping the gun since the last warrior class isn't available for testing yet, but it'd be really nice to hear something from the powers that be about what the status, or any planning about monks living in a post physical affliction overhaul world will be like.  'Cause I'm looking at how warriors are going to play out, then I'm looking at monks, and I'm going...huh.

Cyndarin

God willing they'll delete momentum.

Synkarin

Celina said:

God willing they'll delete monks.

amirite?

Daraius

Monks are people too you know.

Synkarin

It was a joke, mostly. 

I think the plan right now is to get warriors rolling and then tackle monks. There's going to be some changes, obviously, so we'll see what rolls out.

Malayn

There are so many ways to take monks at this point, I was hoping for more information too.

- Will we have momentum?  If yes, same number of levels? Any changes to the mechanics?

- Will monks still use forms or will attacks change to be more like some warriors things? (This is doable if we use some of the wounding design from warriors).

- Are monks still intended to be combo classes or will they be aimed more attrition? We can work with either.

I am available for questions from any players or admin about monk stuff (as usual) and everyone knows I love the form crafting / theorycrafting. If we did some skillset hypo's like Shuyin did it would assume everything might be the same to an extent (or can we say, make it 3 main mo levels and 4 is boost as long as the skillsets move some away from ka and use wounds where appropriate). So many grey areas, so much information we can give. 

Hopefully at least one of our favorite divine players pop in for feedback!

P.S. If we are out to delete monks, can write up some replacements in no time

Xeria

if monks are deleted, will we get a complete refund of lessons invested?

Enyalida

While I find it exceedingly unlikely that the class is outright deleted, probably yes. History has shown that when substantial reworks to a class go through, increased or total lesson refunding on forgetting that skill are offered for a limited time. It's probable (for instance) that warriors will get a full lesson refund when forgetting a particular spec (but not necessarily knighthood itself).

Ieptix

Monks are not either being deleted or undergoing any real significant changes. We'll be working in the new physical afflictions to replace the old ones, and making adjustments as necessary to maintain viability, but monks will be staying largely the same as they are now. The only major change that is still being worked out is how to include the new wounding system, or if we might just nix monk wounding entirely and make it a warrior-specific mechanic.

Cyndarin

That's a loaded question. I think monks would be better served nixing wounding as a requirement, so that we can balance around one mechanic (momentum) rather than two (wounds and momentum). I have some significant concerns about monks using warrior afflictions with just momentum as their limiting factor.

I hate momentum, I think it makes balance an impossible goal because, in order for it to be viable for the monk, it has to also be a run or die mechanic for the target. Which sucks. That being said, if momentum is staying, I do understand why. What we need is a counter for momentum. Momentum needs to be pushed more in the direction of octave and less in the direction of inquisition. Actual tangible counters, and not just prayers and hoping you have enough time to escape before you die. 

Stance/parry/rebounding are not counters. They are barely counters for warriors anymore with the wonky dex changees, but they are virtually non factors for a monk at 5 momentum because of how easily they are bypassed. I don't know what that counter is. Momentum, for one, should drop much more rapidly, so that hindering and playing defensive actually has an effect. Beyond that, I don't know what the solution is.

Shuyin

Momentum should just be fuel to do specific spec based affs with no boost in speed. Ex: 3 MO to give slit throat. No more ka and all that extraneous stuff.

Lerad

Just to weigh in a little on monks and momentum. I think Celina and Shuyin are right - momentum really needs some kind of change.

Momentum is a difficult mechanic for both the user and the target, the latter because of what Celina said, and the former because it is tied so deeply to monk viability. A monk at 0 (or 1) momentum is so limited as to be laughable, and momentum mechanics make it so that there is a literal hard minimum that a monk needs to stay at that ineffective level (assuming 3s balances, then 6s after the first hit a monk lands) before being able to unlock even nominally decent abilities.

(There is one exception, of course, and that is the Tahtetso double hemi, which can be used even from 0mo)

This minimum is frustrating for monks because stance and parry CAN be difficult to overcome without certain modifiers or afflictions to bypass them, and missing a momentum-up form is another 3s of doing effectively nothing. In the current meta, however, most monk users have found various ways to make their life easier at low momentum, or at least adjusted to using the mechanically imposed downtime to set up conditions favourable for when they hit higher momentum levels. On the other side of the spectrum, high momentum unlocks potentially ridiculous amounts of high priority afflictions. Most monk classes do have limits imposed on those afflictions in the form of momentum or power costs, which regulates the repeated use of those afflictions, but as though to make up for the less than average effectiveness at lower momentum levels, a monk's momentum 4 and 5 burst appears intended to, and in actual effect IS used to finish off opponents by overloading them with huge amounts of afflictions or lock them up for a finisher.

The concept behind this idea is actually fairly sound - the burst class that twiddles their thumbs doing nothing much until they build up enough resource (momentum) and expends it all to burst down one opponent. There perhaps is a valid argument to keeping this model, but as Celina said, it isn't exactly fun to feel, on the receiving end, that they are working with a ticking timebomb.

There are ways to tweak our current burst-momentum kind of system to keep the same general idea but try to make it more fun for all involved, and given that Ieptix just said that momentum at least is staying, and the target is to have as little change as possible, there are a few options we can consider that don't involve a major rework of every monk class. Though, I do think with the limited pool of physical afflictions, some redirection and reworking may be needed to differentiate the classes from one another, and also from warriors.

On the topic of wounds - I feel both integrating it into or leaving it out of, the monk repertoire has its pros and cons. For one, the biggest reason monks have been the target of disdain as being "overpowered" (despite having restrictions and limitations) is because they work and feel and seem like warriors without wound requirements. And that is not an unreasonable complaint, because, in effect, they DO work and feel and seem like warriors without wound requirements. They do have other requirements and costs that balance them - but they basically ignore wounds in the current system. They are given an incentive to build wounds, and for some of the monk classes they actually require wounds to gain enough damage potential (or to gain access to the few wound-required afflictions) to move toward their kill goals, but the fact is unchangeable that most of their afflictions do not have wound requirements. Doing the same for the new system can breed the continuation of that impression, and rightfully or wrongfully, it would be an impression that is regardless of whether monks are balanced or not.

At the same time, making monks require wounds for their afflictions do open up a different can of worms, because the overhaul wound numbers are based off the warrior's set up of two small hits or one big hit. Monks have... three hits, one of which is bigger than the other two, all at once. To do a one-for-one translation of warrior wounding potential to monk wounding potential will mean a monk's punches must give 0.5 wounds, which the system currently doesn't provide for. On top of that, there is the problem of wound stacking - without diminishing returns the way pre-overhaul warrior wounding interacts with warrior wounding, post-overhaul warriors are already going to stack very well with each other. Adding monks as a wound-giving class on par with warriors (monk wound output currently is much lower than warrior wound output) will muddy the waters when it comes to assessing and adjusting that. All of that is going to be exacerbated when you consider the new wound effects of delaying ice cures. And all of that is also before even considering how monks will give their afflictions - warriors currently sacrifice wounding for one round of combat to give wound-based afflictions. How will that work with kata forms?

That said, based on what Ieptix just posted, I think it's possible to come up with a few proposals for the momentum vs wounding debate about monks. Firstly, the two premises:

1) New afflictions to replace old afflictions

2) No other major changes

which translates to the same system of different punches and kicks that give different afflictions, keeping momentum, and possibly keeping ka weight to restrict what punches and kicks are used at what momentum level.

Doing this has some downsides:

1) This would mean wounding can't really be instituted as a monk aff requirement, because keeping the same momentum-requirement-cost system while putting in wound requirements on top of that will make it pretty much impossible to play as a monk (you would need to effectively double the number of your forms to have 1 set of wound building at each momentum, and the 2nd set to actually give afflictions at each momentum when targets have enough wounds).

2) You're going to end up with a lot of similar set ups for all the monk classes, because there are a lot less afflictions to replace the old ones. Afflictions that are "indicative" of a certain monk class will all be removed, after all (no more hemi from tahtetso, yay, no more numbs from ninjas , no more sliced limbs from nekos, no more kneecap/elbow spam from shofangi) and replacing them with stuff from the new pool of afflictions WHILE keeping the classes unique and separate can be difficult.

3) Obviously, the same problems with momentum as expounded on above will exist.

I think Shuyin's note about keeping momentum, but using it as an actual resource like power, but not tying it to what a monk can actually do, is a very good idea. A good parallel to draw would be the kai energy in the ther IRE monk skillsets that use kaido, created when attacked (therefore, like momentum) expended for boosts in afflictions or specific non combo based attacks. This also keeps open the possibility of having wound requirements for monks, though it's also not neccesary if the momentum requirements and expenditure are well managed.

There are other possibilities, of course, but I think it's definitely worthwhile to at least consider some rework of the momentum mechanics instead of keeping them as-is.

Malayn

Ieptix said:

Monks are not either being deleted or undergoing any real significant changes. We'll be working in the new physical afflictions to replace the old ones, and making adjustments as necessary to maintain viability, but monks will be staying largely the same as they are now. The only major change that is still being worked out is how to include the new wounding system, or if we might just nix monk wounding entirely and make it a warrior-specific mechanic.

My main concern on this is that monks are not warriors, and a direct conversion won't line up with anything. Warriors had attrition goals, there is no monk attrition kill method, they were based on trying to lock.

I am not saying this isn't doable, just that we wanted more consideration than a direct swap and "deal with it via envoys" approach. Ideally to maintain viability directly into overhaul. 

So, the ideas we kicked around in Monkish include: 

- Tying some afflictions to the new wounding system.

- This includes some skills specifically adding wounds (most would not).  Example is having basic attack cause wound but afflicting attacks now usually do so. Exception to this is NORMAL hits that cause affs because of mods (unarmed mod with a kick, dhaotgh for jakari, etc) would still gain mo as all the affs they can give are minor and used for other steps. 

- Momentum was such an unknown we had a lot of vagueness around it. Reducing max levels of mo to 2-3 so we could allow drops to 0 on momentum loss, although a system of using levels purely as limiters.

- Monks are currently aimed at combo kills, so having some skills be X then Y seemed appropriate to give some flex. Examples of this include things like cracked kneecap, which when used on a limb that already has it causes prone + broken leg, or shofangi stomp which had a different impact when prone I believe.

(For openness the list of monks who have any record of discussion or that I can remember: Myself, Lerad, Tau, Kierstin, Unzareh, Jaamil, Rivius [we allow nonmonks], Naralis, Ryboi, and I believe we had Raeri).

If there is sufficient interest (including divine) I could work with the mob ( each guild still gets its own writer/input ) to make something for a new system or with a new plan in mind. We know there will be wound levels and obviously new affs (some of which, like damagedorgans, are problematic to balance with). We could use a combination of things to keep us unique.   Just need input and such. 

Main reason we wanted to get feedback on monk overhaul was kill plans.

- All bleeding methods (other than ninja bleeding bugs) are based on afflictions going away (lacerations) or might need specific tweaks (burst vessels, assuming those are staying?).

- Instakills will almost all be removed I assume 1) Burst organs is being removed, unless we want the timed kill to stay without an associated aff.  2) Chest pain is going away and allowing common affs would make tahtetso insta too easy potentially without several other reqs instead/as well.  3) Shofangi..... might still have theirs since it is a grapple ender?

- 80% of afflictions are being removed from monk skills. Many make sense to remove (unique affs like pinchednerves, trembling, scrambled brains, etc), but this also has a fairly heavy cost on trying to develop forms to a goal. 

As I said, we can work on something if a consensus can be reached for plan, goals, wishes, etc.  Lerad and I would probably write the main write up for an example skillset*.  Anywho, this post is probably huge and should end at some point. 

* Always have at least two designers, someone to create, and someone to break.

Target replies:

@Shuyin:  Momentum has no effect on kata speed. Only effects are IF you chained, speed modifier, and weapon speed.

@Celina: Momentum is like a crappy setup for burst control. Momentum is like being a guardian who has to wait 5 attacks to be able to use their offense fully. I would be more scared of an MD who was able to sleeplock within 3s than I would be a of monk.  Mo 5 though? Depending on guild the hindering is going to be brutal.

@Ieptix: Would love your continued feedback, particularly what you would all be open to and such.   Thanks for coming

Wobou

I was going to make a new post but instead I'm going to tag on to this one, hopefully this doesn't count as a necro.

So based on what @Ieptix said about not changing the skills remarkably I wanted to share my perspective on what changes would be needed for the Shofangi to be at where they were before (beyond lowering our currently insane damage).

Shofangi basically have five-ish strategies at this point:

1. Slitlock
   
   Right now we can perform our signature hardlock by adding in  chansu in with senso so it's become a tiny bit less reliable but I won't shed a tear for that. However when we move to damaged throat our ability to lock will be gone. I've never been a big fan of the slitlock but it was a powerful thing in our tool kit that especially came in handy for targets with high health. If the goal is to put the skills approximately where we were before then we'll need to shoehorn anorexia in to shofangi which seems... weird.
   
   
2. Shred spam (which is my preferred style)
   
   I'm assuming lacerations are going away, this will mean that the shofangi herb stack will no longer be a thing, this can probably be brought back to where it was by replacing the lacerates with increased bleed on shred. (and the same on rake)
   
   
3. Tied in to #2, building wounds and going for a damage finish.
   
   We'll have to see how monk wounding works when it's added in. I have concerns because I feel the only way I was ever able to build wounds before was through the fact that you couldn't heal a specific limbs wounds and I believe you can do that now.
   
   
4. Crunch (whose mechanics I detest)
   
   Nothing will change here except it might be either easier or harder to build head wounds now. I would still love to delete this skill and replace it with something else but I'll save that novel for another post.
   
   
5. Salve stack
   
   Before at 4-5mo we had the ability to stack 3 regeneration afflictions (2 cracked limbs and a mangle) at the cost of -2mo. Now our mangles cause a stun which is quite a buff, without wounds it cures in around the same time that the original regeneration timer did (the stun + delay works out to about 4s), but once cracked limbs are gone (presumably replaced with damaged limbs) the curing time will go from ~12s (without allheale) to ~8s (if I'm remembering the stun and ice balance time properly) of not being able to stand. This may actually be stronger than where we were before since cracked knees don't stop standing currently. The momentum loss means that one wouldn't be able to keep this up indefinitely (it won't be the return of shofangi permaprone if I'm calculating this correctly) but it is a ton of hindering.

I write this to make the case that some significant changes will be needed just to get monks back to where they were before, as @Malarious pointed out with the removal of burst organs/chest pains other guilds will be impacted much more than mine. I personally would love it if we could use this chaotic moment as a chance to review these monk skills that have largely been untouched since their introduction, but it's understandable that it's not the current goal given all the work that the administration has done so far on the warrior overhaul. That said, I think these impacts are enough to justify a special report of some kind, I feel we will need more tools than the regular envoy reports to deal with all of these issues.

I'm interested in what you think about all of this @Ieptix, especially if any of your thoughts have shifted since September.

Jharen

I recently started playing Lusternia about 10 days ago, and have been having a great time. Such a great time in fact, that I decided to retire my oldest character on another game and migrate here permanently. This being said, I picked being a Ninjakari because the skills sounded cool, and the people in the guild are very helpful and encouraging.

My question is, are Monks still being overhauled? If so, I will hold off on trying to understand the skills and their combat applications. A lot of the Overhaul posts on the forums, and this thread, are a year or more older, so I am not quite sure what's going on with the class.

From someone who has extensive experience writing an offense for a limb damage class on another game, this class seems to lack any sort of end game or finisher, beyond just trying to do a lot of damage and hold someone down.

I guess I'm just giving a long winded request for a status update from a newbie!

Danquik

The Company Line is "Monks are being overhauled". The Player Line is "Sap is being deleted and Christmas is coming too."

Deichtine

Still being overhauled. Monks do enough damage to kill people now and tahetso has a workable instant kill.

EDIT: No date in sight and most people don't think it'll happen within a year or more?