Quest Focus: Envoys and Artifacts

Haghan

So I'd like to request quest envoys or otherwise appointed people to help fix quests.

While we have a bunch of people working on combat, the world has a rich story and plenty of quests that some people enjoy doing.

It feels like quests are being very much ignored, with come being buggy for years on end. Also, the balance and effects of quests are given little regards. I think it would greatly improve satisfaction with the game if we had someone working on that.

Some complaints:
1)  Bugs go unfixed for a while. RIght now  the Plaxios Lowlands, Dropping the Spire of Diornamus, and Queen of Queen quest are locked in limbo.
2) Some quests have reset times that are disproportionate to how long it takes to do them.
3) Some long quests could use 'pause points' that don't require you to redo alot.
4) The designation of 'Honors' quest is seemingly random. Some rather easy quests get honors, and some difficult ones don't. (Mycefax: which also seem sikes it should be doable more than once)
5) Blessings from quests don't stack- they remove the old bonuses (last I checked). Under the new system of bonuses, this should be easier to balance.

Some suggestions:
1) More Honors lines
2) More quests with some effects that linger and people care about..
3) Linking some existing quests into mini-epics if you complete the set (I.e.   Estelbar, Tolborolla, and now Irshaw  could combine into "She is a loyal friend to the Tae'dae").  Racial epics would be cool (even if it just gave you a racial adjective with little bonus). If we could just throw a set of three quests together to make them.
4) Quest artifacts:  Recognize this is part of the game and give us some artifacts for questers.  Yes.. artifact you need to pay for, so that admin can put a bottom line on making things for questers
Sample artifacts:    A single-use item that lets you mind-read a denizen for the topics they like to discuss (keywords),  an item that lets you recognize hidden spots and items you can interact with (maybe also single use), items that increase the spawn rate or rarity of ikons and curios,  maybe a 'save item' (A block of morphing clay that can 'save' a quest item and within the month be used to morph into that item), and item that lets you replicate some hunting ability to find stuff (once again-possibly single use)

I'm not a big advocate of cash grabs, but let's make it possible for questing to be a revenue generator (combat is huge for that), and maybe it will get this rich side of the MUD some well deserved attention.

Kethaera

4. Quest Artifacts: Why not just tell people what the keywords are? The guessing thing to figure them out isn't very IC anyway, and there should be ways of highlighting the text or adding hints to direct to the keywords. Shouldn't require an artifact for it.

I like the idea of an item that recognizes hidden spots or items, but the hidden items is 90% of the challenge of many quests. Save items would be difficult to balance over the need for quests to reset for other people to work them. It would have to have very limited uses for only certain quests, I would think, and in which case, don't see much point to it as an artifact, rather than just a feature of the quest itself- that might be nice, depending on the quest and how it worked.

I would like to see more done with quests though, and I like many of your other ideas.

Sylandra

Just wanted to stick an oar in this discussion with a few points that come to mind:

While bugs in quests are certainly things that shouldn't be ignored, the admin have stated in the past that different admin make different quests. Sometimes, an admin retires while their quest is bugged, leaving many other admin with a confusing mess that they don't entirely understand. A very simple problem might require someone to spend time on a very complicated mission to understand someone else's style of putting a quest together, which I bet takes way more time than most tasks admin do (Sorry, Charites, for my design typos!). So I could see how it gets pushed to the back-burner sometimes.

Admin have also stated that the more information you can put in a bug report, the easier it is to figure out what the bug is.

We also know that quests can take time to create. Consider how often new quests appear in Lusternia. They are a lengthy time investment, requiring the building and describing of rooms, mobs, items, and then the building of the quest mechanics themselves. And then you have to test them!

That said, your complaints are valid. It is frustrating to work on a quest and have it break on you, and it is frustrating to redo a lot of things in a quest, seemingly for a small reward.

Can I ask what you mean by "effects that linger and people care about"? What would you recommend in particular? 

Kethaera

Sylandra said:

Just wanted to stick an oar in this discussion with a few points that come to mind:

While bugs in quests are certainly things that shouldn't be ignored, the admin have stated in the past that different admin make different quests. Sometimes, an admin retires while their quest is bugged, leaving many other admin with a confusing mess that they don't entirely understand. A very simple problem might require someone to spend time on a very complicated mission to understand someone else's style of putting a quest together, which I bet takes way more time than most tasks admin do (Sorry, Charites, for my design typos!). So I could see how it gets pushed to the back-burner sometimes.

This is very true and a big problem in many cases, but my impression was that @Haghan was also talking about being able to provide feedback on certain quests that are done often but not very well balanced around other quests- that's something that even if all the original quest designers are still around, it may not be obvious to them, since they aren't likely playing their own quests/other people's as often as players are. So, I could see that as useful, for some things, if it could be done efficiently.

Can I ask what you mean by "effects that linger and people care about"? What would you recommend in particular? 

I would assume things like the Throne quest, and I agree, I want to see more things done that would encourage people to do quests repeatedly, without just making them all about boosting health/mana/ego. Seems like it'd give people more reasons to stick around and learn how to do the quests without just being given the answers to get another honor title... maybe?

(Sorry for responding though you weren't asking me, @Sylandra, it's just something I'm thinking about a lot lately, too.)

Sylandra

That is okay! You are totally able to publicly respond to a thing I posted publicly on a forum.

That's a great point about player perspective on how quests operate, @Kethaera. 100% agree that is useful, especially for brainstorming future quests I bet. Probably just as useful to do the flip side of mentioning quests that do handle their mechanics and their reward well, because that encourages more like them.

Lavinya

I haven't done it in a while, but I really like reward from the Oil of ur'Lai. It's not just a h/m/e boost, but it's still a boost to influencing. And it has ambients. More ambient quest reward things! (My favourite quest is one in @Morgfyre's realm because it gives a nifty little gem to wear that has the best ambients ever.)

Hoaracle

A couple things:

1. I think all the administration would say that we are sorry if it feels like quests are ignored. Like Sylandra said, fixing quests is a rather tricky process. Often, the quick fixes we put into place when we attempt to address quest-bugs are really band-aids (and sometimes open new cans of worms). 

2. I am not sure whether a quest envoys would necessarily happen. I say this because it is not clear to me whether or not this would address the issue in ways that a thoroughly detailed BUG report could not. I do believe that if we cannot find an issue with a quest, we tend to ask report filers further questions (or even have them try to do the quest while we follow along). 

3. On the issue of reset times and 'pause points,' I will say that some quests are meant to have long or short reset times (both in terms of how long quests are unavailable and the reset items for denizens and items). I am not entirely sure what you exactly mean by pause points. Or at least, I understand what you mean in theory, but I am not sure if there is an elegant solution in their inclusion. 

4. I would actually be really interested to hear about player perspectives on quests, especially regarding quests (and quest rewards) that are particularly well liked. What would be quests that have "lingering effects" look like? 

Saran

For 4... One thing I particularly like about the epic quests is the recognition that you get afterwards. It's just nice to have mobs recognise things that you've done.

I really love the Snoefaasia and Bluebell (even though the decaying part of them is really annoying) just cause it's cool to get them from a quest.

I wouldn't mind something for my manse, like maybe the Moon bubble quest might let you get an Amphista that follows you around, maybe the Hallifax side of the hand quest results in a present from the lucidians (some strange device that's kinda like a different type of doll), no combat effects just something nice and fun, if they're lost then they're gone and they can't be customised though permanent might be an option?

I would be going through many of the quests and building up my manse for this, because I really like the idea of a treasury style manse.

Aeldra

Hi,

as someone who's loving quests and questing, especially quests with figuring things out (Though I've learned that there are some quests that I'm learning to hate very quickly), I would like to add the following:

1) Quests that give rewards would be really nice. Doesn't need to be a functional reward, but just something that keeps you a reminder that you solved a rather difficult quest. E. g. a doll or a random unenchantable jewelry piece or a honey pot you can eat a little honey out of. Of course, not every quest should do such thing, but if you go through a lengthy quest / quest line that would totally be something that would make me glad. Anybody who's seen Aeldra making a huge fuss about miniature things will attest to that ;-)
2) Questing for money? Count me in. It would be a lot more fun then, let's say bashing denizens for the coin part, at least for mw.
3) Some way for us players to provide feedback on possible flaws we might see I would personally love to see.

@Horacle I think what @Haghan means with pause points is the ability to 'stop' a quest at a certain stage and resume at a later time. Some of us don't have four to five hours on to the go you would neccesarly need to perform some quests.

Kiradawea

Kethaera said:

4. Quest Artifacts: Why not just tell people what the keywords are? The guessing thing to figure them out isn't very IC anyway, and there should be ways of highlighting the text or adding hints to direct to the keywords. Shouldn't require an artifact for it.

I like the idea of an item that recognizes hidden spots or items, but the hidden items is 90% of the challenge of many quests. Save items would be difficult to balance over the need for quests to reset for other people to work them. It would have to have very limited uses for only certain quests, I would think, and in which case, don't see much point to it as an artifact, rather than just a feature of the quest itself- that might be nice, depending on the quest and how it worked.

I would like to see more done with quests though, and I like many of your other ideas.

Nah. Quests that include hidden items also have other main challenges. Either trying to figure out how the item is used, or hunting/influencing challenges. Those are also the challenges that return in future attempts at the quest. Finding the hidden items for the Throne quest isn't a challenge. "Everyone" knows where they are. The challenge is in hunting hinderfishes, puzzling out how to use the items, and the lights out puzzle.

Haghan said:

So I'd like to request quest envoys or otherwise appointed people to help fix quests.

While we have a bunch of people working on combat, the world has a rich story and plenty of quests that some people enjoy doing.

It feels like quests are being very much ignored, with come being buggy for years on end. Also, the balance and effects of quests are given little regards. I think it would greatly improve satisfaction with the game if we had someone working on that.

Some complaints:
1)  Bugs go unfixed for a while. RIght now  the Plaxios Lowlands, Dropping the Spire of Diornamus, and Queen of Queen quest are locked in limbo.
2) Some quests have reset times that are disproportionate to how long it takes to do them.
3) Some long quests could use 'pause points' that don't require you to redo alot.
4) The designation of 'Honors' quest is seemingly random. Some rather easy quests get honors, and some difficult ones don't. (Mycefax: which also seem sikes it should be doable more than once)
5) Blessings from quests don't stack- they remove the old bonuses (last I checked). Under the new system of bonuses, this should be easier to balance.

Some suggestions:
1) More Honors lines
2) More quests with some effects that linger and people care about..
3) Linking some existing quests into mini-epics if you complete the set (I.e.   Estelbar, Tolborolla, and now Irshaw  could combine into "She is a loyal friend to the Tae'dae").  Racial epics would be cool (even if it just gave you a racial adjective with little bonus). If we could just throw a set of three quests together to make them.
4) Quest artifacts:  Recognize this is part of the game and give us some artifacts for questers.  Yes.. artifact you need to pay for, so that admin can put a bottom line on making things for questers
Sample artifacts:    A single-use item that lets you mind-read a denizen for the topics they like to discuss (keywords),  an item that lets you recognize hidden spots and items you can interact with (maybe also single use), items that increase the spawn rate or rarity of ikons and curios,  maybe a 'save item' (A block of morphing clay that can 'save' a quest item and within the month be used to morph into that item), and item that lets you replicate some hunting ability to find stuff (once again-possibly single use)

I'm not a big advocate of cash grabs, but let's make it possible for questing to be a revenue generator (combat is huge for that), and maybe it will get this rich side of the MUD some well deserved attention.

Love the idea of mini-epics. The Keph and Illithoid do have their racial epic quests already. And I would love for there to be other miniepics that could be tied together to declare racial loyalty. Maybe with a little toy afterwards... but I'll get back to that later. I first want to address your suggestion for quest artifacts. While most of them are good, if they ever do introduce some sort of hidden object finder, it must *not* be single use. It could have a bit of a cooldown before using it again, but one of the main problems with hidden objects is that sometimes they are not findable by probing every object in the room longdesc. Usually, this isn't a problem, but sometimes you have to prope using the plural/singular form of an object, where it's written singular/plural. Sometimes you have to use synonyms (drapes/curtains) and sometimes, it's not in the long-desc and you have to guess at what should be there. While these tend to be fixed quickly (found two such faults in Serelyn's quest, typoed them and they were fixed by the next morning) it can make it almost impossible to actually find the hidden object you're looking for. You do not want single use items for solving that problem, because you can then end up using an item you bought with credits for absolutely no benefit beyond eliminating a room and do keep in mind that sometimes there's more than one hidden object in the room. The other ideas I love. Many quests are triggered by a single item being put in place, so the clay item could work. Yet... at the same time it could make it possible to finish a quest over and over. What if you copy the filled up manticore egg and give it to Taroch, then kill him at the nomad camp and give the clay egg to him when he respawns. You'd essentially bypass the whole quest if so.

Anyway, moving on.

Hoaracle said:

A couple things:

1. I think all the administration would say that we are sorry if it feels like quests are ignored. Like Sylandra said, fixing quests is a rather tricky process. Often, the quick fixes we put into place when we attempt to address quest-bugs are really band-aids (and sometimes open new cans of worms). 

2. I am not sure whether a quest envoys would necessarily happen. I say this because it is not clear to me whether or not this would address the issue in ways that a thoroughly detailed BUG report could not. I do believe that if we cannot find an issue with a quest, we tend to ask report filers further questions (or even have them try to do the quest while we follow along). 

3. On the issue of reset times and 'pause points,' I will say that some quests are meant to have long or short reset times (both in terms of how long quests are unavailable and the reset items for denizens and items). I am not entirely sure what you exactly mean by pause points. Or at least, I understand what you mean in theory, but I am not sure if there is an elegant solution in their inclusion. 

4. I would actually be really interested to hear about player perspectives on quests, especially regarding quests (and quest rewards) that are particularly well liked. What would be quests that have "lingering effects" look like? 

Regarding reset times and pause points, I'd like to put forth Plaxios. Even though the weather machine quest there is broken towards the end (you have to kill dae'aldim for wires, but the trigger that's supposed to set them to drop a wire for every five dae killed doesn't fire. I'll elaborate in a second.) Plaxios is a good example, both of too short reset times, and good pause points. The main quest requires you to empower four seasonal orbs. You influence lucidian for buttons, then do a puzzle, and then you're given five spires to empower. At this point, the dae'aldim are set to drop wires. You have to hunt them down for wires to fix the spires. The too short reset times come from the fact that the quest seems to expect you to do this in one hour. Approximately one hour after you complete the puzzle, the quest resets. Dae'aldim no longer drop wires, so you can't progress with the quest. Since empowering one orb requires that you kill 125 aldims and 50 morae, and you lose time waiting for NPCs to talk, the timing ends up being way short and you pretty much need a helping hand or five for the killing of aldims.

At the same time, when you *do* manage to complete the quest, you still have to do it three more times to reach the final stretch of the quest. But empowering one orb acts as a "pause point". The orb stays empowered. It does not reset on its own. You can take a break and come back later. The quest itself expects you to come back later, during another season, but it's a good example of a clearly defined pause point for a longer quest. (Incidentally, the bug in Plaxios seems to be that the final stretch of the quest fails to set and maintain the flagthat causes dae to drop wires)

As for quests with "lingering effects", I feel good examples are saving Aestra, which gives you her as a beast for a few days, or helping Serelyn to get Frei. (The whole Meliashmora is a good place to look for good quest rewards.) Granted, both of them should probably come with their own instruction manual, but the end result is a nice little object that you can show off to the world, and let them know that you did something.

I actually love @Saran 's idea of a treasury style manse. If some quests gave an object upon completion, that would be really cool. A tiny little toy of a memento that you could put in your manse. And then you can invite people inside and say "I got this one when I wrestled a shark in Australia saved the orphans on Mount Wend, and I got this one when I meet the Queen of England of Queens after helping raise her."

Finally.

@Aeldra If you want to quest for money, try the village quests. They should all be doable for a novice fresh out of Newton, and upon completion each quest gives you 5000 gold, and an ikon which you can sell for even more gold.

@Lavinya Thanks for reminding me the Oil of Ur'lay quest exists. I should give that quest a twirl.

Aeldra

Kiradawea Yep, I know. Though an hour of bashing usually yields me five times as much, at least. Depending if I go alone or not. The village quests all have at least 45 minutes cooldown and I'd be blocking them for people who've never done it, so it really isn't that attractive.

Kiradawea

Eh, keep in mind that the village quests are *really* easy and quick. They really shouldn't give any more gold than that. And comparable to ratting, the gold the quests provide is pretty decent.

Also, ultimately a quest should not provide more gold AND experience than equivalent hunting/influencing. If it becomes more beneficial to do a quest than other dedicated activities, then that quest will be constantly done, leaving little opportunity for others to join in. As is, the village quests provide a great alternative to earn some gold, while doing something besides endless hunting and influencing. It's a tough balancing act to get right.

Kethaera

Kiradawea said:

Nah. Quests that include hidden items also have other main challenges. Either trying to figure out how the item is used, or hunting/influencing challenges. Those are also the challenges that return in future attempts at the quest. Finding the hidden items for the Throne quest isn't a challenge. "Everyone" knows where they are. The challenge is in hunting hinderfishes, puzzling out how to use the items, and the lights out puzzle.

I wasn't actually thinking of the Throne quest, but with some of the easier ones that have a finding objects part and a logic puzzle part- in many of them, the items aren't always in the same place, unlike the Throne. I do plenty logic puzzles for non-lusternian quest-solving reasons anyway, so the logic part is rarely challenging compared to hunting for that one room I'm missing with that one hidden item I need. With the Throne though, the lights out puzzle is by far the hardest part(assuming one doesn't accidentally put the wrong item in the wrong place...) Once you figure out the logic puzzle once, it's simple to do it again, even if the clues change. Could just be a matter of personal perspective, though.

Doll rewards for epic quests. I want this, and I don't even collect dolls much...

Kiradawea

That... is more a matter of personal perspective yes. The puzzles are always a question of thought, rather than hidden item locations which is all about good paperwork. Throne may be a bad choice as it uses all hiding locations, but Estelbar, as an example, combines hidden items with a puzzle. And here, the puzzle remains the challenge, even though there's more hidden areas than there are toys, simply because once you've located the exact list of hidden locations, the challenge is completely gone. With a logic puzzle, the challenge is there every time you try it. Furthermore, the set of possible solutions to a logic puzzle is far greater than the sum of possible hiding locations. The only exception in all my questing experience has been Stewartsville, where there really isn't a puzzle or any hunting to go with finding the hiding location, meaning that once you know all the locations, which is easy enough, the quest is a piece of cake to solve.

Speaking of, I am gonna go get some cake.

Kethaera

Kiradawea said:

That... is more a matter of personal perspective yes. The puzzles are always a question of thought, rather than hidden item locations which is all about good paperwork. Throne may be a bad choice as it uses all hiding locations, but Estelbar, as an example, combines hidden items with a puzzle. And here, the puzzle remains the challenge, even though there's more hidden areas than there are toys, simply because once you've located the exact list of hidden locations, the challenge is completely gone. With a logic puzzle, the challenge is there every time you try it. Furthermore, the set of possible solutions to a logic puzzle is far greater than the sum of possible hiding locations. The only exception in all my questing experience has been Stewartsville, where there really isn't a puzzle or any hunting to go with finding the hiding location, meaning that once you know all the locations, which is easy enough, the quest is a piece of cake to solve.

Speaking of, I am gonna go get some cake.

But once you understand the logic behind the puzzle, it doesn't -really- change the solution, even if yes, now the pink base goes on Shakiniel's altar. The clues and structure of the puzzle is identical each time, it's just a matter of putting the right color in the right slot under the right conditions. I don't find them challenging more than once, while I do like reading room descriptions and walking around. It's possible I'm just odd. But mm... cake. We can agree on that.

Zagreus

To my knowledge, there's nothing wrong with Zenobia or Spire at present. Plaxios is still broken, yes.

I very much *dislike* the idea of more epics until:
1) bugs with epics and certain people retaining the buildup lines is resolved
2) how epics work is changed-- it's annoying when epic lines remove the rest of the hard earned honors. That's the design for all epics, but I'd really rather not *lose* any more lines (e.g. the aether epic removed 11 honors for me)

Lastly, I think the Divine have done a lot of really cool things lately with permanent non-combat oriented shinies. The Minstrel quest gives you a stein, the merchant Nightmarket quest gives you a mask, and so on.

Kethaera

Getting back to the part about feedback on quests, there's a couple that could do with adding useful hints that would let someone figure out how to solve the quest. One in Faethorn I can remember offhand that @Haghan was helping me with- even knowing the instructions for how to do the quest from a clanhelp file, I couldn't figure out how to trigger any keyword from that mob(if one even exists)... or get any hint whatsoever on how we were supposed to do it. We asked every mob in Faethorn and got nothing. I'll look up later on which one it was, as I can't log in to Lusternia from my current location(unless Haghan remembers). There's others like that, and I would make a list if I thought it might be useful to anyone...

Possibly an argument in favor of just telling people what the keywords are via hints or highlighted words. Aetolia's quests work this way(many of them) and while I'm uncertain if the benefits are always worth the cost of making some quests "too easy", it remains a possible solution to frustrating quest keywords and responses. 

Xenthos

You had two. Perriwinkle and the water, also Antris and the unicorn.

Kiradawea

I could give you a hand with the unicorn. But yeah, those two are infernally difficult. I only figured them out by pure happenstance.

Cyndarin

True story: Every honors line I have was because I accidentally completed a quest, got the last hit on a mob, or someone just let me finish a quest they did all the work for. 

I think the only one I did myself from start to finish was the cankermore quest, which was a lot of fun! I'd love to see more RISK style quest games. 

Eritheyl

Ixion said:

2) how epics work is changed-- it's annoying when epic lines remove the rest of the hard earned honors. That's the design for all epics, but I'd really rather not *lose* any more lines (e.g. the aether epic removed 11 honors for me)

This was already changed, at least in regards to org epics. Prophesy lines are now permanent.

Xenthos

Never got mine back, last I checked. No way to do so, either.

Eritheyl

You don't get them back. If you did them over, you would keep your lines. It wasn't a retroactive fix.

Xenthos

Eritheyl said:

You don't get them back. If you did them over, you would keep your lines. It wasn't a retroactive fix.

Which is incredibly annoying and rather unfair to those of us who did them earlier.

Zagreus

Eritheyl said:

Ixion said:

2) how epics work is changed-- it's annoying when epic lines remove the rest of the hard earned honors. That's the design for all epics, but I'd really rather not *lose* any more lines (e.g. the aether epic removed 11 honors for me)

This was already changed, at least in regards to org epics. Prophesy lines are now permanent.

What admin said this was intentionally changed?

Org epic lines have been keeping buildup lines for a couple RL years now. I've bugged it about multiple people, and early on bugs have been resolved as fixed, and those people's buildup lines were removed. I'm pretty sure only a few people can fix honor lines, so if it was changed why did bug reports fix and remove people's lines in the past? Why are org epics arbitrarily the only epic cycle to keep buildup lines now? Both of these reasons, along with the fact that there were no retroactive changes, lead me to believe it is a bug.


Edit: Wish we got to keep all buildups for every epic. Some of the buildup lines are so cool..

Eritheyl

Don't ask me those questions, I certainly don't have the answers. All I know is that, as of a few months ago, -everyone- has been retaining their lines. If you think it's a bug, BUG it!

=((

Zagreus

Well.... we did, and did, and did. Its been like that for RL year(s) now.

How you said it sounded a lot like you were certain. Sorry if I read into your wording too much.

Zvoltz

Keeping org epic lines is a bug. I looked at it and couldn't see what was causing the problem. Most likely a coder is going to have to look at it when they have the time. Some of the requests in this thread aren't easy to do but it is rather easy to add hints for simple things (ie HINT: You can USE this bucket to water the flowers!) for those who have their hints turned on. If there are any particularly vexing quests that could use a hint, please feel free to post and I will see if it can be added. Being specific will help a lot as bucket1234 or the bucket Trader Bob gives you on Avechna's Peak makes things much easier to find than just saying the bucket from the merchant quest.

Baelor

Expanding on @Hoaracle 's response the variation in code can vary quite significantly, this is apparent in bug fixing quests or adapting or adjusting them through pockets or other expansions.

This doesn't make the original code "wrong" by any means. It's similar to how 10x10, 25x4 and 50x2 all reach 100. But the language used is varied and often unfamilar to the individual.

Other times it can be a case that off the information given, a bug cannot be replicated, or the quest works as originally intended and we find no faults in that design. Either way it might be, with all respects, the player(s) not figuring out the correct solution yet.

However I can only be honest when I say my experience with other admin who tackle these bug reports is to stress test them extensively and resolve issues whenever possible. Nothing is left untouched due to lack of motivation or maliciousness.

Luce

As an aside, tangenitally related to this, is there a way for us to definitively determine if a quest is meant to take multiple sweeps, or it is A) bugged or Someone has interfered with it by taking one of a number of "must turn in x mobs" mobs? Especially if the turn in mob doesn't tell you how many are needed beyond 'some' I've run into a couple that I'm not sure whether they were intentional or sabotage.

Bug reports can sometimes only go so far, and even if the players provide a novel length report complete with citations it might not be able to convey the full situation if mobile A is failing to spawn, mobile B is failing to properly increment or reset its counter, or room Q was accidentally disconnected from the area.

Ssaliss

Couple of suggestions regarding that:

A) Make sure you haven't missed any. Count how many you kill/collect the next sweep you make.

Ask around! Odds are someone knows exactly how many turnins are needed for a quest, and how many are available at maximum.

C) If it turns out there's a small difference (i.e. you need 20, but only 19 are ever available), then it might be worth bugging. If there's a large difference (i.e. you need 20, but only 14 are ever available), then odds are it's by design.