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Aeon Overhaul?

DaganevDaganev
edited June 2015 in Combat Overhaul
Just a couple ideas for Aeon that may or may not be unreasonable.

1. Instead of hindering all commands, aeon allows all commands to go through as normal, but puts a 2 second delay on the "balance" of the action. i.e. your first command goes through normal, but it takes an extra 2 seconds for you to be able to be healed by mana.  So, lighting a pipe or taking out herbs goes at normal speed, but attacks and curing are slowed.

2. Aeon works as normal, but doesn't create a "Cue" of commands that overwrite eachother.  Everything is just slower, as if you have really bad lag.

Hopefully, I'd like to see something that still does basically the same thing, but doesn't need its own coded subsystem to handle.


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Comments

  • LlandrosLlandros
    edited June 2015
    When this process started I just assumed that aeon would get the boot. I was wrong.

    Many people argued and pleaded that it get cut - request denied.

    I like your ideas but there are a lot of things balanced around aeon. Creating a cue or exceptions could get complicated fast. With choke gone you don't really have situations where you are fighting while aeoned. You just stop and wait for it to cure and the resume fighting.

    It is entirely possible that nerfing it could turn out to be more trouble than replacing it. Also, I think we should replace it so I'm willfully biased on that one.

    Edit: for the record I do have tarot aeon so I'm not just hating. Granted, caco bards have no real way to stick it but I do have it in my arsenal.

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  • ShedrinShedrin
    I don't have any elegant solutions right now, but here's what I think the goals should be if aeon (and sap?) is to be reworked:

    Primary Goals
     - Reduce or eliminate the extra burden on system builders that aeon and sap provide.
     - Reduce unfun situations where someone can never be able to do anything.

    Secondary Goals
     - Ensure that guilds heavily reliant on aeon effects can be reworked with the least amount of effort.
     - Keep aeon as a unique affliction filling a unique niche (aka not redundant or just a super powered version of other afflictions).
     - Keep aeon simple conceptually and from an admin coding standpoint.
     - Keep the thematics of aeon as much as possible.
     - Keep everything within the Overhaul cures and systems.

    The more of these goals that are met, then the more likely it will be considered by the admins.

    I'll try to brainstorm some ideas to post later.
  • DaganevDaganev
    Shedrin said:
    I don't have any elegant solutions right now, but here's what I think the goals should be if aeon (and sap?) is to be reworked:

    Primary Goals
     - Reduce or eliminate the extra burden on system builders that aeon and sap provide.
     - Reduce unfun situations where someone can never be able to do anything.

    Secondary Goals
     - Ensure that guilds heavily reliant on aeon effects can be reworked with the least amount of effort.
     - Keep aeon as a unique affliction filling a unique niche (aka not redundant or just a super powered version of other afflictions).
     - Keep aeon simple conceptually and from an admin coding standpoint.
     - Keep the thematics of aeon as much as possible.
     - Keep everything within the Overhaul cures and systems.

    The more of these goals that are met, then the more likely it will be considered by the admins.

    I'll try to brainstorm some ideas to post later.
    Those sound like good goals. I'm curious what you don't like about the two proposals I offered?  I  ask because I had the same goals in mind.
  • ShedrinShedrin
    Daganev said:
    Shedrin said:
    I don't have any elegant solutions right now, but here's what I think the goals should be if aeon (and sap?) is to be reworked:

    Primary Goals
     - Reduce or eliminate the extra burden on system builders that aeon and sap provide.
     - Reduce unfun situations where someone can never be able to do anything.

    Secondary Goals
     - Ensure that guilds heavily reliant on aeon effects can be reworked with the least amount of effort.
     - Keep aeon as a unique affliction filling a unique niche (aka not redundant or just a super powered version of other afflictions).
     - Keep aeon simple conceptually and from an admin coding standpoint.
     - Keep the thematics of aeon as much as possible.
     - Keep everything within the Overhaul cures and systems.

    The more of these goals that are met, then the more likely it will be considered by the admins.

    I'll try to brainstorm some ideas to post later.
    Those sound like good goals. I'm curious what you don't like about the two proposals I offered?  I  ask because I had the same goals in mind.
    Sorry, I wasn't meaning to comment on your proposals positively or negatively. I'm still thinking about it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    I have some ideas about what to do with sap, but they'll depend on what the final afflictions look like so I've been sitting on them.

    The purpose of Aeon for the lusternian classes that have it is not to 'slow down' curing balances, in the sense your solution 2 captures. It's to disallow stacked commands, so that you can't get out of locks. You have to send the melancholy command - wait a second for it to go through (or fail), send the smoke command - wait a second for it to go through (or fail), then send the aeon cure command - wait a second, etc. In a queue based system, you'd send the stacked commands as normal (SM ADD apply|smoke|eat) and they'd all take place as quickly, one second later. Changing things that currently rely on/revolve around aeon to this kind of system would be equivalently disruptive as just dropping aeon. The IREs that have that kind of aeon (retardation) use it for different purposes, and have been slowly phasing it out, afaik.

    That said, Aeon tarot could certainly be changed to work with this kind of (weaker) queuing mechanic, instead of full aeon, reserving the aeon effect for classes that can use their primary or secondary to deal true aeon (or sap). Are any of the classes that get Tarot really reliant on aeon tarot for hindering or killing? Off the top of my head, I don't think they are. I also don't think Tarot needs (full) aeon to be tremendously powerful, it's just spammy icing on the cake.
  • DaganevDaganev
    Can you explain to me why the following is incorrect?

    "The queue system that is created by Aeon, has two purposes.  1. To make it difficult for the target to respond to a changing situation, and 2. To delay curing to such a degree that you can pile on either damage, afflictions, or mana drain."

    I ask, because I'm not sure what difference the que makes other than making the system harder to deal with/code and thus making 1 and 2 more effective than a general lag.  If the lag was say 3 seconds, then the (SM add apply/smoke/eat) would take just as long, no?

    What third purpose of Aeon am I missing?
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Your #2. isn't complete. You seem to be assuming that 'delaying curing' literally just means giving it a 1 second delay, and that's not the case. The real strength of aeon is that it forces its victim to only do one thing at a time, instead of being able to act upon all curing balances at once to cure a chunk of afflictions in quick succession.

    Let's say you're sapped, prone, with a broken leg and slickness. To cure, you need to (in this order), eat calamus (herb balance), apply mending to legs (salve balance), stand (regular balanceless), and rub cleanse. In Aeon, sending that as a stacked command (in order) will fail: you'll try to rub cleanse only and will fail. Queue aeon would allow it to go through perfectly fine in a much shorter time.

    As aeon effects are now, you need to send eat calamus (assuming you have it out), wait a second for it to go through (1). Then you apply mending, wait a second for it to go through (2). Then, with your leg fixed, you can stand, waiting a second (3). Then you send rub cleanse and wait a second for it to go through (4). That's a total of 4 seconds, because you can only do one thing at a time.

    In a queue system with a 2 second delay, you'd send a stacked command: eat calamus;apply mending;stand;rub cleanse. 2 seconds later, you'd suddenly BURST into action, curing out of sap in an instant. Not only did you get out more quickly over all, there is no time in the middle for the person trying to hold the aeon lock to observe and respond. For instance, I can see you eating calamus and applying to your legs. If I know you have slickness and see you apply to legs without eating calamus, I can assume you will fail and will go to eat calamus next. Likewise, if I know you have a broken leg, see you eat calamus and then apply to legs, I know that you're going to be standing up in a bit less than a second and must react in that window to re-break legs, and so on. The point here is not that one way is better than the other, but that the non-queued version is what some classes are balanced around using, and making it queue aeon would be the same as removing aeon, effectively.

    Raising the delay on queue-aeon doesn't adequately solve the problem either, as it will always be arbitrary.  Fundamentally, the strength of aeon as an offensive strategy is that it forces you to do one thing at a time, not that it puts you slightly behind the action.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Yeah...either change it all, or don't. None of this minor aeon stuff.

    Even if this idea went in, the delay should be longer and the balance taken from doing weak aeon shorter. To start with.
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  • QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifink
    I think a lot of Nihilists rely on aeon tarot?

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    edited June 2015
    I don't think specifically targetting skillsets you don't like, and also happen to not have access to, is really the best and most fair solution to address overarching aeon concerns.


    I do not find aeon itself to be a significant issue. In Achaea, for example, aeon is not as prominent because the ability to lock people in aeon is much more difficult due to the classes who have aeon (occultists, jesters?) require venoms and secondary abilities to lock you down. Old Nihilists tactics that used to use aeon did not lock targets, but stuck it long enough to get an advantage. Actually sticking it was an involved and expensive process. 

    In modern Lusternia, sticking aeon for extremely long periods of time is just really easy compounded with issues like princessfarewell being wildly overpowered and bypassing aeon defenses, passive aeon researchers, masked afflictions to lock aeon, etc etc etc. IMO, envoys responsible for these skills should have been addressing them on a class by class basis. Removing aeon, when aeon has not historically always been a problem until Hallifax, cantors, etc became an issue, is not really addressing the issue and unfairly punishing everyone else who were not unabalanced with it. 

    We should also eliminate the number of sources that can apply aeon. Off the top of my head, aeon field, any class specific aeon (sorry researchers, go tarot) that isn't wane, shadowtwist aeon can probably get the boot, princessfarewell, etc etc.

    Or I guess we could change it to retardation. OHWAIT. 
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  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    To be honest the only time I have problems with aeon is when it's aeon + stun or some other aff given at the same time. Otherwise, all good.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    edited June 2015
    Shuyin said:
    Yeah...either change it all, or don't. None of this minor aeon stuff.  .

    This, basically. It'd only be useful as a halfway solution to lower the prevalence of aeon (and aeon spam), and would probably create more of a mess than it would solve. 


    Celina said:
    I don't think specifically targetting skillsets you don't like, and also happen to not have access to, is really the best and most fair solution to address overarching aeon concerns.

    What?

    Celina said:
    ... issues like princessfarewell being wildly overpowered and bypassing aeon defenses, passive aeon researchers, masked afflictions to lock aeon, etc etc etc. 
    What what?





    Celina said:
    ...until Hallifax, cantors, etc became an issue, is not really addressing the issue and unfairly punishing everyone else who were not unabalanced with it. 

    We should also eliminate the number of sources that can apply aeon. Off the top of my head, aeon field, any class specific aeon (sorry researchers, go tarot) that isn't wane, shadowtwist aeon can probably get the boot, princessfarewell, etc etc.

    It's like you don't read your own posts. It's amazing. 

    I mentioned Tarot off-hand as a good place to prune true aeon precisely because it is a widely available tertiary skillset, not one that targets specific sides or guilds. Many guilds get it and can spam aeon, but would not necessarily be unduly harmed by removing it, as it's not a core part of their guild's kit - it's a tertiary skill, one of several. On the other hand (as mentioned), there ARE guilds that are balanced around having aeon... usually, they have their aeon skill in their primary or secondary. Like it or lump it, druids need their aeon-effect as is (or a rewrite), as do several other classes. Some are less necessary: Princessfairwell, for instance, certainly could be removed or toned down. Aeonics, on the other hand, pretty well needs their aeon sources to remain relevant. 

    It's whatever. I don't really expect anyone to let go of their 0p-aeon spamming bards, it was just a thought about a possible pruning choice.


  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk
    Aeon tarot is the last Nihilist refuge. It would make sense to delete it so they don't have any ways left to kill with.
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Celina said:
    We should also eliminate the number of sources that can apply aeon. Off the top of my head, aeon field, any class specific aeon (sorry researchers, go tarot) that isn't wane, shadowtwist aeon can probably get the boot, princessfarewell, etc etc.
    Uhwhat? The class with the AEONics skillset going tarot to give aeon? How does that make sense? Being that the org is pretty heavily oriented with time manipulation, I'd say if anything, you'd probably want to remove aeon from other orgs rather than Hallifax.
    image

    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    Silvanus said:
    Aeon tarot is the last Nihilist refuge. It would make sense to delete it so they don't have any ways left to kill with.

    I don't doubt it. However, clinging to a spammy tertiary trick isn't the way to go, imo. Nihilists really badly need a rewrite, if Aeon ends up being a part of that, make it part of Nihilism instead of tacked onto one of the terts.
  • ShedrinShedrin

    Daganev said:
    Just a couple ideas for Aeon that may or may not be unreasonable.

    1. Instead of hindering all commands, aeon allows all commands to go through as normal, but puts a 2 second delay on the "balance" of the action. i.e. your first command goes through normal, but it takes an extra 2 seconds for you to be able to be healed by mana.  So, lighting a pipe or taking out herbs goes at normal speed, but attacks and curing are slowed.
    I assume you mean something like... eat dust, it goes through like normal, but takes 2s longer to regain dust balance. Might be workable in general, though would probably require significant changes to certain guilds. Definitely not much of a system burden, so I like that.

    Enyalida has the right of it on the one action at a time thing.

    My main concern with aeon is the extra burden it puts on writing a system. Aeon isn't necessarily OP (though certain aeon skills can be), but it can still be bad while not being unbalanced.
  • AllehnonAllehnon
    Aeon is fine and has very valid purposes.

    Aeon+ needs to be looked at.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    edited June 2015
    Enyalida said:
    Shuyin said:
    Yeah...either change it all, or don't. None of this minor aeon stuff.  .

    This, basically. It'd only be useful as a halfway solution to lower the prevalence of aeon (and aeon spam), and would probably create more of a mess than it would solve. 


    Celina said:
    I don't think specifically targetting skillsets you don't like, and also happen to not have access to, is really the best and most fair solution to address overarching aeon concerns.

    What?

    Celina said:
    ... issues like princessfarewell being wildly overpowered and bypassing aeon defenses, passive aeon researchers, masked afflictions to lock aeon, etc etc etc. 
    What what?





    Celina said:
    ...until Hallifax, cantors, etc became an issue, is not really addressing the issue and unfairly punishing everyone else who were not unabalanced with it. 

    We should also eliminate the number of sources that can apply aeon. Off the top of my head, aeon field, any class specific aeon (sorry researchers, go tarot) that isn't wane, shadowtwist aeon can probably get the boot, princessfarewell, etc etc.

    It's like you don't read your own posts. It's amazing. 

    I mentioned Tarot off-hand as a good place to prune true aeon precisely because it is a widely available tertiary skillset, not one that targets specific sides or guilds. Many guilds get it and can spam aeon, but would not necessarily be unduly harmed by removing it, as it's not a core part of their guild's kit - it's a tertiary skill, one of several. On the other hand (as mentioned), there ARE guilds that are balanced around having aeon... usually, they have their aeon skill in their primary or secondary. Like it or lump it, druids need their aeon-effect as is (or a rewrite), as do several other classes. Some are less necessary: Princessfairwell, for instance, certainly could be removed or toned down. Aeonics, on the other hand, pretty well needs their aeon sources to remain relevant. 

    It's whatever. I don't really expect anyone to let go of their 0p-aeon spamming bards, it was just a thought about a possible pruning choice.


    It's amazing you can't see past your own bias and actually read my post in context . Bolding tidbits that fit your narrative while ignoring the context. That's cool. This IS going well. 

    Remember the part where I said shadowtwist aeon can probably go? Fun fact: I like shadowtwist. I don't know if you've ever heard of me, but I played a Shadowdancer for 4-5 years and am still in Glomdoring. I also mentioned we should keep wane. That's a Seren skill, I don't know if you knew that either. 

    What you failed to notice in your rush to try and out-sass me is that the skills I listed have all been added as the game has progressed, aeonfield, princessfarewell bypassing aeon, shadowtwist, are all new or relatively new in context to skills like tarot aeon and wane which have been around since the start. Which is kind of what I already said, isn't it?  That aeon wasn't he core of the issue, but all the sources that have been added that, among other things, have created the issue. See how that all fits together now? Turns out I do read my own posts. 

    I specifically discussed tarot, just for you, as an example of how aeon historically was not an issue because of tarot. 

    Or I guess we could go the Elanorwen route and balance based on what skills are named. IDK. Or I suppose the Enyalida route and talk about how serious we about removing sap for 4 years. Rude-o, don't get sassy with me just because you can't read.

    I happen to think my explination is more thought out than "too many tarot spammers, nerf tarot!"
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  • DaganevDaganev
    Shedrin said:

    Daganev said:
    Just a couple ideas for Aeon that may or may not be unreasonable.

    1. Instead of hindering all commands, aeon allows all commands to go through as normal, but puts a 2 second delay on the "balance" of the action. i.e. your first command goes through normal, but it takes an extra 2 seconds for you to be able to be healed by mana.  So, lighting a pipe or taking out herbs goes at normal speed, but attacks and curing are slowed.
    I assume you mean something like... eat dust, it goes through like normal, but takes 2s longer to regain dust balance. Might be workable in general, though would probably require significant changes to certain guilds. Definitely not much of a system burden, so I like that.

    Enyalida has the right of it on the one action at a time thing.

    My main concern with aeon is the extra burden it puts on writing a system. Aeon isn't necessarily OP (though certain aeon skills can be), but it can still be bad while not being unbalanced.
    Pretty much sums it up.
    The other option I was thinking of was that along with the delayed balance recovery, each action also locks all your balances. But I think at that point you create another system re-coding beast, so it would not be worth it.  Better, in my view, to just figure out what exactly would have to be changed for the guilds  that rely on  one action only rather than the slowness.

  • SahmiamSahmiam
    Without reading much of this thread or considering the implications it would have to classes, and remembering I haven't done combat in a few years, my suggestion would be to have aeon go both ways.

    Actions of and to the victim are delayed, except actions to the victim don't overwrite each other.

    Basically, aeon + stun + other afflictions would create a queue of stun + other affs a few seconds later, regardless of whether aeon was cured. It would allow people to use aeon to stack conditions while giving the target time to cure aeon prior to being hit with the combo all at once.
  • ShedrinShedrin
    Sahmiam said:
    Without reading much of this thread or considering the implications it would have to classes, and remembering I haven't done combat in a few years, my suggestion would be to have aeon go both ways.

    Actions of and to the victim are delayed, except actions to the victim don't overwrite each other.

    Basically, aeon + stun + other afflictions would create a queue of stun + other affs a few seconds later, regardless of whether aeon was cured. It would allow people to use aeon to stack conditions while giving the target time to cure aeon prior to being hit with the combo all at once.
    Could you elaborate on this? Not sure I understand what you mean.
  • EodhEodh
    This is going the way of Fearaura OP -> Nerf Wolf all over again.

  • LlandrosLlandros
    Eodh said:
    This is going the way of Fearaura OP -> Nerf Wolf all over again.
    Except that no one has total aeon immunity.....

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  • SahmiamSahmiam
    Shedrin said:
    Sahmiam said:
    Without reading much of this thread or considering the implications it would have to classes, and remembering I haven't done combat in a few years, my suggestion would be to have aeon go both ways.

    Actions of and to the victim are delayed, except actions to the victim don't overwrite each other.

    Basically, aeon + stun + other afflictions would create a queue of stun + other affs a few seconds later, regardless of whether aeon was cured. It would allow people to use aeon to stack conditions while giving the target time to cure aeon prior to being hit with the combo all at once.
    Could you elaborate on this? Not sure I understand what you mean.

    Say Aeon adds a two-second delay to every action you make (I don't remember what the number actually is).
    I give you Aeon.
    While you have Aeon, I give you asthma plus stun you. The asthma and stun also are delayed by two seconds, OR, immediately hit if aeon is cured.
    This would give you two seconds to cure Aeon without being hindered by the other afflictions, but also allow me to stack the other afflictions at the same time.

  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    If we're ever gonna change aeon, I'd prefer we just allow queuing of actions while aeoned but leave execution the same.

    Ex: I am aeoned, I can queue up smoke steam;stand;hi and not have it cancel my smoke attempt. It will just fire with a delay as with right now.

    Imo this would take care of a lot of the coding.

    But still, aeon itself is fine.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Llandros said:
    Eodh said:
    This is going the way of Fearaura OP -> Nerf Wolf all over again.
    Except that no one has total aeon immunity.....
    Healers do, or what basically passes as aeon immunity. 
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  • EodhEodh
    Llandros said:
    Eodh said:
    This is going the way of Fearaura OP -> Nerf Wolf all over again.
    Except that no one has total aeon immunity.....
    What I mean is, aeon itself isn't really a problem. It's aeon + something that's the issue, and instead of addressing the problematic combinations, we're proposing to change aeon itself, which is not a problem with guilds that do not have access to said problematic combinations.

  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    So basically people don't like Pfarewell, SkySforzando and Shadowtwist.

    I can dig that.

    Just make something equatable in return.

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  • DaganevDaganev
    Eodh said:


    Llandros said:


    Eodh said:

    This is going the way of Fearaura OP -> Nerf Wolf all over again.

    Except that no one has total aeon immunity.....

    What I mean is, aeon itself isn't really a problem. It's aeon + something that's the issue, and instead of addressing the problematic combinations, we're proposing to change aeon itself, which is not a problem with guilds that do not have access to said problematic combinations.

    Aeon is a "problem" by itself, for coding systems.
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