Other people have ways to avoid specs and demesne watch as well, it's not unique to Veil
The only ones I'm coming up with have significant shortcomings comparatively, and you certainly can't just waltz in like with Veil.
Veil is very strong. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that, I just think it's kind of silly to get so adamant in the defence of it, 'specially when criticism is coming from people who've never been able to use it.
Other people have ways to avoid specs and demesne watch as well, it's not unique to Veil
How does one avoid specs? Im generally curious here, because the only way I can think of is if you removed yourself from someone's enemy list by lusting pre-hand or using Night Gloomtide. I think spectacles will still detect if someone comes into the area with veil.
Other people have ways to avoid specs and demesne watch as well, it's not unique to Veil
How does one avoid specs? Im generally curious here, because the only way I can think of is if you removed yourself from someone's enemy list by lusting pre-hand or using Night Gloomtide. I think spectacles will still detect if someone comes into the area with veil.
People on your lust list also show up with specs. Gloomtide is the only thing that comes to mind... and if you're attentive about checking enemies/allies you'll catch it anyway. Bit confused how people would avoid meld watch though.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Does hyperactive in Acro avoid specs, or does that just avoid demesne watch?
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Veil does avoid specs and meld watch, iirc. Though I've never sat down to really test it.
Acro hyper has a chance to avoid the spiritsinger spirit-callout, I think, but not meld watch, nor specs.
Did you just test it? Last I checked, hyperactive does avoid demesne watch... somehow. I distinctly remember getting into an argument with someone about how silly that was.
When the change was first made, it definitely blocked meld watch (and I think shrine watch, specs, magicmouth, programmed illusions, etc. etc. - basically everything that fires on room enter except traps which only had a 50% chance. I think it even stopped statues).
I think Hyperactive has a -chance- to avoid meld watch, just like it's only a chance to avoid pits etc.
I think Veil and Deepcover are just a little too much, and do warrant a small nerf bat. But expecting people to have arties to compensate for skills (e.g. map) or switch weights around for Seek is kind of strange to me.
EDIT: Despite its strength, it has been beaten of course. see: chaos challenges, etc. It's just a massive undertaking to get organised to fight it. Not to mention that in other situations, things like village distort, guards and other defenses are completely obsolete to a Stealth user.
Just throwing this out there, but I'd trade stealth away in an instant for harmony. Evade is nice, veil and deepcover are nice, and awareness is free spectacles. But there's no more darting novices with crotamine, and as we all know, that's the only true use for the entire skillset.
I'll grant that Harmony is a fine equal to Stealth, and even challenges people that need to focus on thresholds to kill with their vitals scrambler, among many other things just like Stealth challenges chasing. But Stealth offers a significant edge to two orgs (and Malarious) in a really important part of Lusternia.
Nah, Veil is fine, you just need to get better at combating it
Whenever I deal with Veil it's this ridiculous benny hill scenario until I get annoyed at running around and end up sitting at some intersection spamming some kind of hinder ability until I (hopefully) happen to catch them.
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Harmony is better than stealth in every single way aside from the super niche ability to be very difficult (read: not impossible) to catch when you are by yourself.
Guards, for the record, have a chance to see through deepcover. Stealth users do not render guards "obsolete." They certainly don't counter distort and other discretionaries.
So, what a lot of this sounds like is, people don't want the guilds with stealth to...actually be able to do stealthy things. Because...honestly, the only thing stealth is good for is letting me sneak and spy and be an invisible ninja.
That was the major drawcard of me moving to ninjas. What made me sort-of-ok with giving up harmony. I'm really, really enjoying the episonage part of the guild, being able to get in and do stuff that no one else can really do.
Like Tarkenton, I'd love to have harmony back. But then, I'm not sure what we'd anymore. Not ninjas.
And seriously, it lasts five minutes. Then we have to get out, and wait five minutes before we can do it again. If you really think this is broken, and ninjas and nekotai shouldn't be able to do actually stealthy things, then I don't know.
If the problem is, rather, the good side doesn't have Veil, then...we can work out a way for you to get it. To equalize Harmony and Stealth somehow. I'd be willing to try come up with something like that if others are keen and the admin allow it.
Harmony is better than stealth in every single way aside from the super niche ability to be very difficult (read: not impossible) to catch when you are by yourself.
Guards, for the record, have a chance to see through deepcover. Stealth users do not render guards "obsolete." They certainly don't counter distort and other discretionaries.
So dramatic over skills you don't even understand
Yes, yes they do. Stealth users can ignore village distort. I know this because Malarious was sneaking into Rockholm to assassinate Thoril many times when Southgard was owned by Glom (fairly long time ago when he was still a Glom).
EDIT: And pyramiding out when things got hot. Or ascending.
Honestly, I've had to self-work-out a lot of this. Now we have a few more oldie ninjas around again, hopefully they can correct any errors in my knowledge. But this is the rule I've found out. If you are going to say 'Surely veil doesn't stop x seeing you enter or x detecting you' then, the answer is, yes it does. It does stop that. (With the possible exception of seek, as mentioned earlier.)
It doesn't make you invisible. You will show up on WHO, with no location, unless you have a gem.
It doesn't stop guards hitting you. It doesn't stop statues or totems, or any of that enemy status stuff. In order to do that, we need Deepcover, which is the advanced version of Masquerade, for which we need a mask, that decays fast when we wear and use it a lot, and decays in storerooms. So you keep needing to obtain enemy heads to keep on doing stuff. And I've seen Nayl die to guards even when deepcovered, so, like Celina said, it's not even 100%. Possibly 90%, but there's still a risk you just fail and die.
I totally agree that Harmony is better than Stealth... Doesn't mean that Veil isn't stupid.
The problem with veil isn't it's ability to help you do quests or that it's a powerful 'sneaky' skill: It's the potential to escape during ongoing combat and be effectively impossible to catch when paired with acrobatics - even when people already know you're there somewhere because you were attacking them personally Your stealth has failed, yet you're somehow still being sneaky.
Being able to track a running enemy is an essential part of Lusternian combat, especially when your group has skimpy yanking skills to pull a veiled person back into the room. For 5p, a stealth user can run willy nilly around a territory with near impunity, even if everyone knows they're there and knows exactly what they're doing (and can even get a hit off on them every once in a while, by sheer luck). Let's see you do squat to someone running around a 300 room area on one of three elevations without any kind of scrying or scenting (or lust tarot/empress when you get lucky and wander onto them).
If all it was used for was 'getting in' and 'doing stuff' it would be fine. It's when people grab wildenodes and veil up so you can't catch them, or run around inside Prime org territory terrorizing with a mob of people trying to chase them down, having instantly spotted them (sneakiness failed) but still being totally unable to engage them in combat because they can't be tracked or held down with anything but pfifth (until they beast gust and walk away). Who cares about guards, they're practically useless anyways - that's the real problem.
In 'sneaky actions' time, 5 minutes is short. In combat, 5 minutes is a tremendous span of time. I'm not interested in neutering the out of combat aspect of veil, or in giving veil to everyone. Just make it so that being hit or hitting a player turns it off briefly, so that it's not a 5p combat impunity card.
Nah, Veil is fine, you just need to get better at combating it
Whenever I deal with Veil it's this ridiculous benny hill scenario until I get annoyed at running around and end up sitting at some intersection spamming some kind of hinder ability until I (hopefully) happen to catch them.
Please tell me explicitly how to do better.
Have tarot, a buddy, and spam Lust. When the move away, empress them back to your group. Don't have empress and pfifth and the best movement hindering team in the game (Illums, with carcer/sludge/hekoskeri/torso tentacles)? Tough titty.
@Enyalida You make a good point, however, another factor to consider is the ability of ninja to escape well. I have used Veil for escaping a domoth battle that's turned bad a few times. Allies decided we weren't gonna win, ascended out, I got left behind. So I veiled, got away from the fighting, and then sent messages asking for a bix or something. It's sneaky, and awesome.
Divorcing Veil from pvp combat isn't something I'd have a problem with. If it drops on me attacking someone, I don't mind that. As long as I can use it to escape in a puff of smoke... You'd have to convince the envoys though.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Harmony is better than stealth in every single way aside from the super niche ability to be very difficult (read: not impossible) to catch when you are by yourself.
Guards, for the record, have a chance to see through deepcover. Stealth users do not render guards "obsolete." They certainly don't counter distort and other discretionaries.
So dramatic over skills you don't even understand
Yes, yes they do. Stealth users can ignore village distort. I know this because Malarious was sneaking into Rockholm to assassinate Thoril many times when Southgard was owned by Glom (fairly long time ago when he was still a Glom).
EDIT: And pyramiding out when things got hot. Or ascending.
Then you need to bug that instead of bitching. Veil isn't a distort bypass. Jesus H Christ.
A lot of you are confusing veil and deepcover. Veil makes you unscryable while deepcover treats you like the owner of the mask you wear (hopefully they are unenemied). While deepcover is up, that's when guards and stuff don't work.
So get them to drop deepcover, that's when they'd put up veil to run away.
Imo it's not individual skills that are a problem, it's when veil + deepcover + acro atuff are used together.
So here's an elegant solution. Have deepcover share the same cooldown as veil. Now the monk has only one or the other. Way more counterable.
PS the only reasonable way to catch a veiled person is to sit at the exit to an area, cover all elevations and spam your hinder. Popular choke points work too.
Harmony is better than stealth in every single way aside from the super niche ability to be very difficult (read: not impossible) to catch when you are by yourself.
Guards, for the record, have a chance to see through deepcover. Stealth users do not render guards "obsolete." They certainly don't counter distort and other discretionaries.
So dramatic over skills you don't even understand
Yes, yes they do. Stealth users can ignore village distort. I know this because Malarious was sneaking into Rockholm to assassinate Thoril many times when Southgard was owned by Glom (fairly long time ago when he was still a Glom).
EDIT: And pyramiding out when things got hot. Or ascending.
Then you need to bug that instead of bitching. Veil isn't a distort bypass. Jesus H Christ.
You're the one using cuss words and expletives. Sounds like you're the one riled up. :P
A lot of you are confusing veil and deepcover. Veil makes you unscryable while deepcover treats you like the owner of the mask you wear (hopefully they are unenemied). While deepcover is up, that's when guards and stuff don't work.
So get them to drop deepcover, that's when they'd put up veil to run away.
Imo it's not individual skills that are a problem, it's when veil + deepcover + acro atuff are used together.
So here's an elegant solution. Have deepcover share the same cooldown as veil. Now the monk has only one or the other. Way more counterable.
PS the only reasonable way to catch a veiled person is to sit at the exit to an area, cover all elevations and spam your hinder. Popular choke points work too.
See above points about 300 room areas with dozens of exits. Or when they're not trying to escape, see @Talan's benny hill comment. Or rooms with four elevations, some of which you can't hinder on at all. And ha! Hinder an acro.
The elegant solution would be to do that, but also make veil drop when you're caught, like deepcover does. Heck, make it go back up after 10s or whatever, just make it so that you can't move 2 rooms and vanish. Then you can even make the duration longer!
A lot of you are confusing veil and deepcover. Veil makes you unscryable while deepcover treats you like the owner of the mask you wear (hopefully they are unenemied). While deepcover is up, that's when guards and stuff don't work.
So get them to drop deepcover, that's when they'd put up veil to run away.
Imo it's not individual skills that are a problem, it's when veil + deepcover + acro atuff are used together.
So here's an elegant solution. Have deepcover share the same cooldown as veil. Now the monk has only one or the other. Way more counterable.
PS the only reasonable way to catch a veiled person is to sit at the exit to an area, cover all elevations and spam your hinder. Popular choke points work too.
See above points about 300 room areas with dozens of exits. Or when they're not trying to escape, see @Talan's benny hill comment. Or rooms with four elevations, some of which you can't hinder on at all. And ha! Hinder an acro.
The elegant solution would be to do that, but also make veil drop when you're caught, like deepcover does. Heck, make it go back up after 10s or whatever, just make it so that you can't move 2 rooms and vanish. Then you can even make the duration longer!
I dunno. Deepcover doesn't drop when you're attacked as far as I've seen. There's been several occasions where I've caught Malarious in Rockholm, hit him, and his mask stays up. I've pointed it out on forums and got told "Eh, it only drops when they attack you" which is just a load of bull. Anyway, I'm liking the entertainment value of people going "Can't beat veil? Lrn2play" and then refusing to answer direct questions on beating veil. Good luck catching someone with veil in the Inner Sea, just saying.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Comments
How does one avoid specs? Im generally curious here, because the only way I can think of is if you removed yourself from someone's enemy list by lusting pre-hand or using Night Gloomtide. I think spectacles will still detect if someone comes into the area with veil.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Acro hyper has a chance to avoid the spiritsinger spirit-callout, I think, but not meld watch, nor specs.
Did you just test it? Last I checked, hyperactive does avoid demesne watch... somehow. I distinctly remember getting into an argument with someone about how silly that was.
I think Veil and Deepcover are just a little too much, and do warrant a small nerf bat. But expecting people to have arties to compensate for skills (e.g. map) or switch weights around for Seek is kind of strange to me.
EDIT: Despite its strength, it has been beaten of course. see: chaos challenges, etc. It's just a massive undertaking to get organised to fight it. Not to mention that in other situations, things like village distort, guards and other defenses are completely obsolete to a Stealth user.
Please tell me explicitly how to do better.
Vive l'apostrophe!
That was the major drawcard of me moving to ninjas. What made me sort-of-ok with giving up harmony. I'm really, really enjoying the episonage part of the guild, being able to get in and do stuff that no one else can really do.
Like Tarkenton, I'd love to have harmony back. But then, I'm not sure what we'd anymore. Not ninjas.
And seriously, it lasts five minutes. Then we have to get out, and wait five minutes before we can do it again. If you really think this is broken, and ninjas and nekotai shouldn't be able to do actually stealthy things, then I don't know.
If the problem is, rather, the good side doesn't have Veil, then...we can work out a way for you to get it. To equalize Harmony and Stealth somehow. I'd be willing to try come up with something like that if others are keen and the admin allow it.
EDIT: And pyramiding out when things got hot. Or ascending.
It stops thirdeye, scry, farscout, spectacles, scent, demesne watch, probably Spiritsinger spirits.
It doesn't make you invisible. You will show up on WHO, with no location, unless you have a gem.
It doesn't stop guards hitting you. It doesn't stop statues or totems, or any of that enemy status stuff. In order to do that, we need Deepcover, which is the advanced version of Masquerade, for which we need a mask, that decays fast when we wear and use it a lot, and decays in storerooms. So you keep needing to obtain enemy heads to keep on doing stuff. And I've seen Nayl die to guards even when deepcovered, so, like Celina said, it's not even 100%. Possibly 90%, but there's still a risk you just fail and die.
If all it was used for was 'getting in' and 'doing stuff' it would be fine. It's when people grab wildenodes and veil up so you can't catch them, or run around inside Prime org territory terrorizing with a mob of people trying to chase them down, having instantly spotted them (sneakiness failed) but still being totally unable to engage them in combat because they can't be tracked or held down with anything but pfifth (until they beast gust and walk away). Who cares about guards, they're practically useless anyways - that's the real problem.
Divorcing Veil from pvp combat isn't something I'd have a problem with. If it drops on me attacking someone, I don't mind that. As long as I can use it to escape in a puff of smoke... You'd have to convince the envoys though.
Then you need to bug that instead of bitching. Veil isn't a distort bypass. Jesus H Christ.
So get them to drop deepcover, that's when they'd put up veil to run away.
Imo it's not individual skills that are a problem, it's when veil + deepcover + acro atuff are used together.
So here's an elegant solution. Have deepcover share the same cooldown as veil. Now the monk has only one or the other. Way more counterable.
PS the only reasonable way to catch a veiled person is to sit at the exit to an area, cover all elevations and spam your hinder. Popular choke points work too.
I like Shuyin's suggestion.
The elegant solution would be to do that, but also make veil drop when you're caught, like deepcover does. Heck, make it go back up after 10s or whatever, just make it so that you can't move 2 rooms and vanish. Then you can even make the duration longer!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Also gave legit solutions.