When races are overhauled, I don't see why Viscanti or Dranari will become less popular. However, for the Viscanti in particular, I was under the impression that they wanted to a "ruling elite", which was enforced by racial requirements in the city, even while making mugwumps and various warrior races more attractive as shock troops. That is, with stats, you can make each race as attractive as you want it to be to have a direct affect on how popular a particular race is within the org.
If there's a race with better stats that's a more efficient at whatever class - then Viscanti and Dracnari will be just like they are now, less popular or tons of racehats in use.
If I'm painting my house, and I can now choose any color.. why would I start having a discussion about what happens when I pick the wrong color? I'm really just not understanding what point you are trying to make.
Depending on what the goal is, (elite minority ruling class, or majority ruling class) , its easy enough to make each race as attractive or unattractive as the lore suggests they should be for players to pick in each situation.
Does Lusternia really want Igasho mages and guardians?
I've been a "taedae" shadow dancer/illuminati (typically wump or faeling), and now a "taedae" monk (Aslaran, illithoid, Igasho when I feel like being mana killed) for a while now. Could've just as easily been igasho. I don't see the issue at all. As for what Synkarin said, people that in the end want to be as effective as they possibly can be are going to gravitate to the statistical master races, and just race hat away their problems. Rp, sadly, often has to come secondarily to mechanics in a lot of instances.
Which is weird, because the primary reason to avoid statpacks is to preserve racial RP somehow. I agree though, being locked into certain races to be viable hurts racial RP, because the choice ends up being more OOC/Mechanically motivated than it is for racial rp reasons.
And let's be honest with ourselves. Dingbat race hats = dollars for the game. Not that I begrudge Est and co making money, but i imagine that may be some of the motivation for no stat packs.
I don't think a race hat is really the solution. In the end you're still not that race, you're just a pretender. For me at least, that would kill RP on that character.
Plus, race hat or changeling cameo is only for those people with spare credits. Everyone else is going to choose a race that makes them viable for hunting/combat/influence. Which in turn means, we keep the status quo that some races will rarely be played at all.
@Enyalida: I honestly don't see why statpacks would kill racial RP. Quite the opposite. If humans can differ greatly (some are great athletics, some great thinkers etc) why can't aslarans or krokani? Why does -every- last igasho have to be stupid as mud? Differences exist in real life, so why keep everything 100% static here for every race (except humans for some reason)?
EDIT:
@Daganev: So my answer is, yes, I do want igasho mages. I want people to be playing an igasho because they really want to RP an igasho, and not because the igasho helps them min/max their stats best while giving shit about racial RP involved.
Stat packs basically gives everyone a race hat. So what would differentiates the races?
The reason why humans have different stats and the sharded races don't is explained by the lore. I guess enough time has passed that now the sharded races have all intermingled and become like the viscanti. Let race just be a title in the honors line?
0
EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
I'm for keeping the races differentiated by stats, but not by as much as they are now. I favour smaller advantages that would only matter to the min-maxer trying to get every tiny advantage. That way, most people are freer to pick their race for RP and still compete.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
Whatever the end result, I certainly hope that taedae racial options are still available to me. I.e. strong warrior damage, cavalier bonuses, low int, and good influencing stats. I don't care if that comes from a guild or race or other option, but they are strong aspects of Daganevs character.
I'm a fan of Estarra's proposal, I just think its weird that what we think of as the influencing powerhouses would basically... not be. In fact, there's not a single race with more than 13 Empathy (There are 15 of other stats). The most "Charismatic" races, Elfen, Faeling, etc. fall a little bit behind, though probably not noticeably. Maybe that should change? I dunno. But as a Loboshigaru, I'd finally be on par influencing
Question: If we went the direction of stat packs, wouldn't it be better to remove stats entirely so you can't accidentally pick the "wrong" stat pack?
You can already pick the "wrong" race, so there's no difference to before.
Plus, newbs get unlimited reincarnations up to level "I-forgot-which-some-20ish" so if they pick the wrong race they have plenty of time to reincarnate as often as they want. I don't imagine that to change. If stats and race are separated, you'd simply have two varables when reincarnating (instead of one).
Why is the current situation relevant? The stats and what they mean are being redone. Seems it would be easier to balance things if stats were removed.
Personally, I like stats defining the race better, but if the majority prefer race to have no connection to stats, I'm not sure what the stat pack option will be adding since everything is going to be balanced around the best stat pack for each guild anyways. And this way when you switch guildflex you don't have to change your stats.
Why is the current situation relevant? The stats and what they mean are being redone.
What? .. What's the connection between this reply to what I previously said in reply to your question? Sorry, but this seems like a weird circle-reasoning that makes absolutely no sense.
Seems it would be easier to balance things if stats were removed.
Personally, I like stats defining the race better, but if the majority prefer race to have no connection to stats, I'm not sure what the stat pack option will be adding since everything is going to be balanced around the best stat pack for each guild anyways. And this way when you switch guildflex you don't have to change your stats.
There is no "best" race for a guild. A good example of that are brood viscanti. If you want to get mana killed easily, then and only then do you play that race. But everyone who prefers to live a tad bit longer picks another race and then racehats into viscanti. Even though viscanti are the org race for the ur'guard. (Plus, sipping malus. How I hate it.)
There have always been people who played differently and put emphasis on different things. If you only bash, you'd go for different stats than if you wanted to do PvP. Likewise, if you wanted to be an influencer you'd go for different stats again.
And lastly: Nothing here is decided yet. Estarra hasn't said yay OR nay about the entire idea of removing the fixed connection between race and stats. Maybe she'll do it, maybe she won't, maybe she does some big ol' magic(tm) that no one has imagined yet.
I just think it would add flexibility and allow people to pick their race based on RP reasons, which in my personal opinion is about the best reason there is to choose one race over the other. That's all.
Discussion got buried underneath races, but RE: health - what would you guys consider to the average hp buff bonus level for the regular player? Would it be 3? Which skills/buffs would that be?
Discussion got buried underneath races, but RE: health - what would you guys consider to the average hp buff bonus level for the regular player? Would it be 3? Which skills/buffs would that be?
As someone without genies or any other artifacts that boost health, my base health (as a lucidian demigod (with endowment), base con 15) is 5510. For me, the buffs I would have easily enough is the throne blessing and a truefavour (raising con to 17). These two things bring me to 6732. I could get another small boost from Benign Prophesy.
I have been told 'Divine Health Blessing' (from influencing godrealm mobs of your own order) have been removed as a separate thing and now it is just a single type of blessing, but if there is still a thing, this would also be relative easy to get.
My personal concerns is that a lot of these suggestions seem extremely complicated and in depth to explain to novices.
Lusternia already suffers from feature creep and a depth of complication unheard of in most MUDs and ultimately this hurts Lusternia's ability to retain novices.
Additionally, I think this would be the perfect time to take steps seen in other IREs to change race to a RP role, and divorce stats from races. This echoes Shedrin's idea of having stats be based on class, though I think having it strictly "this class has these stats" limits the ability for innovation.
There are several options to address this. The first would be the trait system of Achaea. For those that are not familiar, there are list of major and minor traits. This list of available traits is the same for every level, but as you level up (level 30, 50, and 80) you get an additional major trait that you can select, things like +stats, +sip effectiveness, +balance, etc. At every 10 levels other than those listed above, you gain a minor trait, things like better lasting clothes, faster fishing balance, just quality of life things. This allows players to pick a race that fits their RP, but pick the stats that fits their mechanical needs.
Another option would be to create specific archetypes for races, similar to the specializations that exist now except you choose which one you prefer to be.Every race has a strength focused archetype, a dex focused archetype, etc. Make this available to everyone.
I would be glad to go into more detail in either of these options if there is any interest in me doing so.
Congratulations! By order of Newt Blasterson, you've been named a Master of the Aetherways! 2015/12/09 23:54:29 - Pejat drained 2000000 power to raise Davos as a Vernal Ascendant. You use 80,000,000 of your divine essence. You gain BeauteousThought as a supernumerary power.
The last time I paid a visit to Achaea, the one thing I liked the most was that I could reincarnate into Siren (A race that used to be pretty much RP-only with its stats on release) and still be a very viable combatant with the trait/statpack system. I'd love to see something like that in Lusternia, too... or even the other edition, give each race a level of customization like they have at present with org-specific races, but make it available for every race in every org rather than specific ones.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Even Achaea has specific top tier races, and top tier traits. So while it appears on the surface to be ooh all flexible cool we can be anything, their system still only allows for certain race/trait combinations that our system currently does at the higher tiers. You can spend 2 minutes on their forums and find a thread talking about x race/stat requirement unless you have y artifact then it's z race. thsi is because only certain races can reach the highest str, the highest con, the highest dex, or the highest int.
The fantastic part about Lusternia is that, save for warriors, the artifacts are not so influential that they dictate our race (which is why i'm extremely opposed to stat artifacts, they ruined Achaea combat for me). I think this is very much a "grass is greener" argument, that doesn't actually play out in the evidence. Sure, the casuals have some more flexibility because now a lot of races are viable, but I don't think the casuals are the ones really driving the overhaul changes or the money flow. Serious combatants rarely play something that is just "viable." Mages in achaea are pretty much all grook or tsol'aa for max int and have the +eq trait. Etc etc.
Down with the idea for specializations for each race, but that's a lot of work.
Even Achaea has specific top tier races, and top tier traits. So while it appears on the surface to be ooh all flexible cool we can be anything, their system still only allows for certain race/trait combinations that our system currently does at the higher tiers. You can spend 2 minutes on their forums and find a thread talking about x race/stat requirement unless you have y artifact then it's z race. thsi is because only certain races can reach the highest str, the highest con, the highest dex, or the highest int.
The fantastic part about Lusternia is that, save for warriors, the artifacts are not so influential that they dictate our race (which is why i'm extremely opposed to stat artifacts, they ruined Achaea combat for me). I think this is very much a "grass is greener" argument, that doesn't actually play out in the evidence. Sure, the casuals have some more flexibility because now a lot of races are viable, but I don't think the casuals are the ones really driving the overhaul changes or the money flow. Serious combatants rarely play something that is just "viable." Mages in achaea are pretty much all grook or tsol'aa for max int and have the +eq trait. Etc etc.
Down with the idea for specializations for each race, but that's a lot of work.
Nobody said we can't take the good bits out of their system and get rid of the bad bits. I don't care personally. I have a cameo, a faeling hat and a changeling locket. Under the hood I'm usually running either min-max for damage (lucidian) or min-max for survivability (dracnari/illithoid/dwarf) or if near the end of the month and a revolt happens, min-max for influence/debate (trill). I hate that certain races have the crazy +eq/+bal bonuses/maluses. Balancing anything around those is insane... especially when you have the outlier that is mugwump with the +3 eq bonus. Would be much happier to see the option to be able to be any race in any archetype/class. Of course, the frustration will happen with the existence of gnome/fink right now and their crazy outlier stats + 500cr cost/race.... but I'm sure something can be done there too. And yes, looking at that... we already have stat shopping with those two particular races that have starter stats of 18+
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
How about instead of stat packs, you get X points which you can divide between the stats however you like?
As long as there is some system to make min-maxing stats painful at some point like rising costs per point the higher you raise a stat, I really like the sound of this.
How about instead of stat packs, you get X points which you can divide between the stats however you like?
Not really a solution to the fact that race is chosen for viability (understandably!) and not an RP option. I'd like it to be the latter, some prefer it to remain the former.
Are people commenting about races as they are now, or based on the proposal that Estarra wrote, and the conversation afterwards? Its getting hard to tell.
Comments
Depending on what the goal is, (elite minority ruling class, or majority ruling class) , its easy enough to make each race as attractive or unattractive as the lore suggests they should be for players to pick in each situation.
Does Lusternia really want Igasho mages and guardians?
Plus, race hat or changeling cameo is only for those people with spare credits. Everyone else is going to choose a race that makes them viable for hunting/combat/influence. Which in turn means, we keep the status quo that some races will rarely be played at all.
@Enyalida: I honestly don't see why statpacks would kill racial RP. Quite the opposite. If humans can differ greatly (some are great athletics, some great thinkers etc) why can't aslarans or krokani? Why does -every- last igasho have to be stupid as mud? Differences exist in real life, so why keep everything 100% static here for every race (except humans for some reason)?
EDIT:
@Daganev: So my answer is, yes, I do want igasho mages. I want people to be playing an igasho because they really want to RP an igasho, and not because the igasho helps them min/max their stats best while giving shit about racial RP involved.
The reason why humans have different stats and the sharded races don't is explained by the lore. I guess enough time has passed that now the sharded races have all intermingled and become like the viscanti. Let race just be a title in the honors line?
If we went the direction of stat packs, wouldn't it be better to remove stats entirely so you can't accidentally pick the "wrong" stat pack?
Plus, newbs get unlimited reincarnations up to level "I-forgot-which-some-20ish" so if they pick the wrong race they have plenty of time to reincarnate as often as they want. I don't imagine that to change. If stats and race are separated, you'd simply have two varables when reincarnating (instead of one).
Seems it would be easier to balance things if stats were removed.
Personally, I like stats defining the race better, but if the majority prefer race to have no connection to stats, I'm not sure what the stat pack option will be adding since everything is going to be balanced around the best stat pack for each guild anyways. And this way when you switch guildflex you don't have to change your stats.
There have always been people who played differently and put emphasis on different things. If you only bash, you'd go for different stats than if you wanted to do PvP. Likewise, if you wanted to be an influencer you'd go for different stats again.
And lastly: Nothing here is decided yet. Estarra hasn't said yay OR nay about the entire idea of removing the fixed connection between race and stats. Maybe she'll do it, maybe she won't, maybe she does some big ol' magic(tm) that no one has imagined yet.
I just think it would add flexibility and allow people to pick their race based on RP reasons, which in my personal opinion is about the best reason there is to choose one race over the other. That's all.
I have been told 'Divine Health Blessing' (from influencing godrealm mobs of your own order) have been removed as a separate thing and now it is just a single type of blessing, but if there is still a thing, this would also be relative easy to get.
Lusternia already suffers from feature creep and a depth of complication unheard of in most MUDs and ultimately this hurts Lusternia's ability to retain novices.
Additionally, I think this would be the perfect time to take steps seen in other IREs to change race to a RP role, and divorce stats from races. This echoes Shedrin's idea of having stats be based on class, though I think having it strictly "this class has these stats" limits the ability for innovation.
There are several options to address this. The first would be the trait system of Achaea. For those that are not familiar, there are list of major and minor traits. This list of available traits is the same for every level, but as you level up (level 30, 50, and 80) you get an additional major trait that you can select, things like +stats, +sip effectiveness, +balance, etc. At every 10 levels other than those listed above, you gain a minor trait, things like better lasting clothes, faster fishing balance, just quality of life things. This allows players to pick a race that fits their RP, but pick the stats that fits their mechanical needs.
Another option would be to create specific archetypes for races, similar to the specializations that exist now except you choose which one you prefer to be.Every race has a strength focused archetype, a dex focused archetype, etc. Make this available to everyone.
I would be glad to go into more detail in either of these options if there is any interest in me doing so.
2015/12/09 23:54:29 - Pejat drained 2000000 power to raise Davos as a Vernal Ascendant.
You use 80,000,000 of your divine essence. You gain BeauteousThought as a supernumerary power.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Even Achaea has specific top tier races, and top tier traits. So while it appears on the surface to be ooh all flexible cool we can be anything, their system still only allows for certain race/trait combinations that our system currently does at the higher tiers. You can spend 2 minutes on their forums and find a thread talking about x race/stat requirement unless you have y artifact then it's z race. thsi is because only certain races can reach the highest str, the highest con, the highest dex, or the highest int.
The fantastic part about Lusternia is that, save for warriors, the artifacts are not so influential that they dictate our race (which is why i'm extremely opposed to stat artifacts, they ruined Achaea combat for me). I think this is very much a "grass is greener" argument, that doesn't actually play out in the evidence. Sure, the casuals have some more flexibility because now a lot of races are viable, but I don't think the casuals are the ones really driving the overhaul changes or the money flow. Serious combatants rarely play something that is just "viable." Mages in achaea are pretty much all grook or tsol'aa for max int and have the +eq trait. Etc etc.
Down with the idea for specializations for each race, but that's a lot of work.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.