Conflict quests

Ssaliss

So, we've all seen the Eye of Zenos over the last week (? Can't remember exactly when it came up). I'm not sure if it's a matter of people not knowing how to put it down, or that it's too hard to put down, or that the quest is bugged or something. Either way, it seems the Eye is here to stay for a while. Thus my (perhaps somewhat controversial) suggestion: Put a time limit on these quests. Make them go down on their own after, say, a week. That's plenty of time to take advantage of the quest, or to try to put the quest right on your own, before it goes away on its own.

I can think of a number of quests that this would apply to, but I'm sure there are others as well:

• Eye of Zenos
• Tainted Broadcasting Center (even though it tends to be taken down pretty quickly)
• Marani
• Soulforge
• Slaghora'ruin
• Muud (which, granted, I've never actually seen yet)
• Spire of Dionamus

What all these quests have in common is that they have a world-wide effect that's negative in one way or another. While conflict quests can be fun in moderation, them being up possibly permanently isn't that much fun for those affected.

Portius

Rather than a hard time limit, I'd go with weakening the effect over time or making the quest get easier over time. Having them just disappear suddenly after X days seems kind of anticlimactic.

Talan

The counter quest for Zenos is bugged. It has been reported.

As for the rest, I like these quests (obviously), and I feel like they give people something to do. Most of them are completed only rarely, and when that happens it spawns an event-like thing that the admin do not have to run, yet which players are engaged in. I would not like to see these things get ignored simply because people know that the effects will eventually fade.

Also, Zenos and Marani are not conflict quests. They're things being done to the world, not targeted at any org/orgs.

Ssaliss

Well, yeah, perhaps conflict quests might've been the wrong label. World-altering quests? Detrimental quests?

Portius

As an aside to this, I really like the idea of conflict quests as a sort of indirect PvP mechanic. More of those are good, admin who are reading this. I'd prefer them to have short effects, or just one off things in the style of Project Crucible or the hand quest. I'd prefer them to be long term org-level things like the hand, too.

Maligorn

I definitely don't like the idea of this. If Marani is left unchecked, she is -supposed- to become really powerful and a serious pain.

If Goloth Maxyenka is raised in Lirangsha, he shouldn't die of a sudden heart attack after a week.

Ssaliss

Yeah, I have absolutely nothing against conflict quests as such. The more, the merrier! It's just that their effects shouldn't drag on indefinitely. Heck, I'm even up for giving them a crescendo of sorts; if it's up too long, they'll go bang and do something (Marani might, during the last day/hour, expand the power sap effect to the entire Basin, etc) rather than just going "Eh, good enough, let's stop".

Eritheyl

Ssaliss said:

Well, yeah, perhaps conflict quests might've been the wrong label. World-altering quests? Detrimental quests?

Annoying, I feel the word you're looking for is annoying.

Ayisdra

Of your list, I wouldn't consider Spire of Dionamus a that bad of quest. It only effects Mags or those with a crow egg (or maybe a odd thing here and there). Even then , it only removes 1 level of regen (and only out doors during the day (Unless it doesn't work like blessing?)) down to level 0.

On conflict quests in general: There are ways to counter these things (sometimes the counter is easier than the raise). There doesn't need to be a timer.

Shaddus

I don't know about you guys, but I think the most detrimental part of the Spire is those god-awful sunrises and sunsets. Amirite?

Maligorn

Dude, the purple dawn and dusk is the BEST part of the Spire. I'd raise it even if it didn't hurt Mag just for those.

Silvanus

So because it only impacts Mags it's not really a big deal? Or are you trying to say that it only impacts 1/6th of the population, can't be turned against, and raising it is used to farm Vernal curios but destroying it gives nothing means it's not a big deal?

Marani is also part of Mag's epic cycle, while the rest of these are not.

Maligorn

Silvanus said:

So because it only impacts Mags it's not really a big deal? Or are you trying to say that it only impacts 1/6th of the population, can't be turned against, and raising it is used to farm Vernal curios but destroying it gives nothing means it's not a big deal?

Marani is also part of Mag's epic cycle, while the rest of these are not.

General consensus of everyone is that destroying it should give a Soulless curio. Admin aren't on board though, or they haven't heard this suggestion!

Ayisdra

Silvanus said:

So because it only impacts Mags it's not really a big deal? Or are you trying to say that it only impacts 1/6th of the population, can't be turned against, and raising it is used to farm Vernal curios but destroying it gives nothing means it's not a big deal?

Marani is also part of Mag's epic cycle, while the rest of these are not.

I'm saying the fact it only removes 1 level (and doesn't go into negative levels) makes it not a big deal. The fact the -1 regen is only outdoors and during the day (correct me if I'm wrong here in the way the malus works, I'm going off the buff only working outdoors and during the day) makes it not a big deal.

(These are serious questions and not condescending as I honestly don't know): How much is that extra level of regen really going to help you? Assuming no racial regen, Mags have a Level 2 regen in Taint. Would a Level 1 regen in Taint really make you lose a fight every time?

Enyalida

I'm pretty sure that the way regen stacking works allows for a -1 regen to still leave you at a level 3 regen. Basically, you still have all those regen levels when you're above cap, but only the first three work. So if you stack four levels (skill+2 racial+enchant, for instance), one is subtracted 'off the top' and you still have three effective levels. This is why pre-change musicboxes were so lame, they didn't have an effect at all on a sector of players who had enough regens to re-cap after a reduction.

Ssaliss

Enchantment!=racial regen.

Enyalida

No, I'm actually pretty sure they work on the same system. 

EDIT: However, not all skills use the 'racial regen' levels system. For instance, the harmony regen skills do not.

Ssaliss

Without mercy, my regen did the following:

3237h->3573h->3909h->4210h (8% per tick)

With mercy, it did the following:

3237h->3447h->3783h->3993h->4210h (alternating 5% and 8% per tick)

Thus, not racial regen.

Enyalida

Health and mana regens use different mechanics, that is totally certain. That said, check out HELP 5.1.1.

EDIT: I could be wrong here, but everything I've ever heard and experienced points to it working as I described. 

It's also totally possible that it is still using the same capping system, but the two regens have different global tick timers. That is, you're still being capped at 3, but 2 are firing at the same time and the third isn't. It's also possible that thinks have been shook to pieces backstage by the upcoming total overhaul to these mechanics. Who knows, it's mostly guesswork on this end.

Ssaliss

Yeah, that one is kinda... odd?

WHAT ALWAYS AFFECTS HEALTH REGENERATION
---------------------------------------
enchanted items with mercy charges
boost and regeneration abilities


WHAT AFFECTS HEALTH REGENERATION WITHIN LIMITS
----------------------------------------------

Racial bonus to health regen:    1-3 levels
Mercy enchantment:               1 level

Enyalida

The total of levels that will affect health regen is 3. Having a total of

levels beyond 3 is allowed, but will not increase health regeneration 

rates.

It totally lumps together the levels from racial bonus and mercy enchantment, in that line. So, /shrug. Sorry for the derail, anyways.

Ssaliss

Oh, and mana and health enchantments are different, yeah. Health regen is 5%, mana regen seems to be a flat 75.

Lavinya

Whether a big deal or not, that quest was spammed constantly for months, and it was a huge pain in the ass. We're only getting a small malus, you say? Well, you were all also getting a small buff. That widens the gap when the fighting starts. But more than the detrimental effect, more than the fact that those raising it were farming curios but taking it down did nothing but enable someone to farm another curio, more than it being much easier to raise than destroy, it shows up on diagnose. Do you want to know how many newbies were asking, like almost every day this question would come up - 'why am I cursed by the spire of dionamus? What is that? How can I cure it? Am I strong enough to do the quest? Didn't we remove this not long ago?'

Pain in the ass.

I understand where Ssaliss is getting at, and I kinda agree. I'm over getting my movement hindered by the stupid zenos business. I also understand that we want to encourage doing the counter-quests, but a happy medium between conflict over the quests and being irritated for long periods because someone did a quest would be nice, if it were possible.

Enyalida

I tried for a not-insignificant number of hours this past week to drop the Zenos eye. A lot of time was spent trying to figure out where to even start, and then from there trying to turn in what was asked, to no avail (evidently due to a bug). 

The big thing that annoys me about quests (conflict quests especially) is when it feels like it's impossible to figure out how to start, or how to get to the next step. Sometimes the moon logic only makes sense when you have an npc holding your hand through it during the opening event. Heck, with some quests, even WITH a walkthrough and having completed it several times, I'm not always sure what the guiding thread is, or how someone without a walkthrough is possibly supposed to complete it (looking at you, Seren epic).

Steingrim

Ssaliss said:

Yeah, that one is kinda... odd?

WHAT ALWAYS AFFECTS HEALTH REGENERATION
---------------------------------------
enchanted items with mercy charges
boost and regeneration abilities


WHAT AFFECTS HEALTH REGENERATION WITHIN LIMITS
----------------------------------------------

Racial bonus to health regen:    1-3 levels
Mercy enchantment:               1 level

I gave up bringing up that help scroll years ago, after people telling me it makes sense. I makes no sense to me and no one who said it made sense ever bothered to explain it to me.

Maligorn

I think this is a little knee-jerky. Zenos would have been gone within the day if his counter quest weren't literally broken. Unfortunately, we have to live with him til the counter quest is fixed.

Spire, Marani, TBC...I like the way they function and how they require mass cooperation to take down (or put up). It's -hard- to do Spire alone unless you're an artied demigod (and actually know the quest, and can get someone to help you because there -is- a two person required part).

I would say Marani should be considered without enemy territory to keep away the Mag epic grief, but there are similar instances of PvE smobs elsewhere (Cthogglogg, Zenobia). So.

Ssaliss

Steingrim said:

Ssaliss said:

Yeah, that one is kinda... odd?

WHAT ALWAYS AFFECTS HEALTH REGENERATION
---------------------------------------
enchanted items with mercy charges
boost and regeneration abilities


WHAT AFFECTS HEALTH REGENERATION WITHIN LIMITS
----------------------------------------------

Racial bonus to health regen:    1-3 levels
Mercy enchantment:               1 level

I gave up bringing up that help scroll years ago, after people telling me it makes sense. I makes no sense to me and no one who said it made sense ever bothered to explain it to me.

Well, no. It makes no sense. That Mercy is listed under both "always available" and "Sometimes available" is kinda silly.

Maligorn

If we were to consider a timer on these, there would have to be -severe- consequences for the Basin not banding together to kill Marani Veloske, or Goloth Maxyenka, or Globglob or Zenos.

Like hitting all the org's nexus for a massive chunk of power (or their shield (Flame of Glinshari, Drachou etc)).

EDIT: And I mean like all orgs. Meaning, a Celestian can't ninja raise Marani and expect Mag to take care of it; if she gets big enough, she'll hit the Pool of Stars too. Spire of Dionamus would have to be left out of this setup or get a different consequence if left unchecked.

Marcella

You physically can't do spire alone beacuse of the snowfield part.

Ssaliss

Maligorn said:

If we were to consider a timer on these, there would have to be -severe- consequences for the Basin not banding together to kill Marani Veloske, or Goloth Maxyenka, or Globglob or Zenos.

Like hitting all the org's nexus for a massive chunk of power (or their shield (Flame of Glinshari, Drachou etc)).

EDIT: And I mean like all orgs. Meaning, a Celestian can't ninja raise Marani and expect Mag to take care of it; if she gets big enough, she'll hit the Pool of Stars too. Spire of Dionamus would have to be left out of this setup or get a different consequence if left unchecked.

Yeah, I'd be perfectly fine with having consequences. Perhaps not a blanket "Drain nexi of power", but preferably something related to the quest itself (for instance, AEON EVERYWHERE FOR AN HOUR for Zenos).

Steingrim

Enyalida said:

I tried for a not-insignificant number of hours this past week to drop the Zenos eye. A lot of time was spent trying to figure out where to even start, and then from there trying to turn in what was asked, to no avail (evidently due to a bug). 

The big thing that annoys me about quests (conflict quests especially) is when it feels like it's impossible to figure out how to start, or how to get to the next step. Sometimes the moon logic only makes sense when you have an npc holding your hand through it during the opening event. Heck, with some quests, even WITH a walkthrough and having completed it several times, I'm not always sure what the guiding thread is, or how someone without a walkthrough is possibly supposed to complete it (looking at you, Seren epic).

I am going to echo this. This is a quest where even the north and south tried to pull together. So I spent most of a day helping the north trying to reseal Zenos, then I spent a large chunk of the next three days pulling various people who knew the quest to try different things.

To the admin: I get that quests get bugged. I get that the person who made the quest very possibly may not be around. I get that quest code often doesn't have any easy reset. But, Estarra, when a quest like this breaks, couldn't there be an admin command to just remove the harmful effect?

There still seems to be the need for some way to better communicate broken quests to the Admin. It is frustrating to have a quest broken and not know if the admin is even aware of it. Couldn't we have tags for bugs? And then the tagged bugs be used to generate reports for staff? Either that or a separate Quest bug so players can see if a specific quest has been reported (even if they can't see the report) and add their own findings? That way we might as a group provide the staff with useful information.