The difference between 22 and 25 charisma is huge. I am an ugly peasant and it is making me super sad.
Disclaimer: This lament is not intended to be used as justification for any nerfing/buffing. I'm not talking about the effects of influence/charisma on village mobs.
When the overhaul knocks me from 25 charisma to 12 charisma I am going to cry into a pillow for real life months. I personally plead for giving everyone 25 in every stat. Hey, why not 26 to keep gnomes and finks happy. *sob*
For Mister Zvoltz, Pejat has been terminated by the Replicant Dynodeon.
I do recall informing you a few weeks ago @Silvanus that Estarra was happy with you filing a special report for the Nihilists to re-open their issues with the pledge system after the most recent changes.
Saying nothing has happened from the admin is false.
RIP crucifixion tweets, you'll remain a fond memory.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited June 2015
I'm sorry, Kelly can't be absolved after an admission of going against the intent of the report. Yes, we all play the same envoy game, but there is some degree of accountability here, and admitting to taking advantage of a situation to undermine the intent and spirit of the system at the expense of everyone else is not acceptable.
edit: Here's the thing. The admin aren't all knowing. They are not combat omniscient beings with infinite time and endless perspectives. They suffer from the same restrictions we do. The only way for the envoy system to function fairly is for the players to also hold themselves and each other accountable. The buck might stop with the admin simply because someone has to okay the changes, but it is also the responsibility of the envoys to not abuse the system when the opportunity presents itself.
My impression during that whole thing was that nothing any player could have said would have removed shackles from that list entirely.
EDIT: As in, there is something to be said for not being passive about it, but you can't lay the existence of shackles at the feet of any player for doing anything. With or without @Kaimanahi's support, it would have been in. Without her support, there would conceivably have been NO caveats or restrictions at all.
I do recall informing you a few weeks ago @Silvanus that Estarra was happy with you filing a special report for the Nihilists to re-open their issues with the pledge system after the most recent changes.
Saying nothing has happened from the admin is false.
Again...
Your report came up through Estarra. My report would've had to come through me. The ideas would've had to come through me.
Estarra went to the Celestines with ideas.
My report would've had to go through Envoy scrutiny and actually follow the procedure.
Your report went through no time at all. Did not follow procedure, and did not have any ideas come from an envoy.
Telling me that I can re-send Pledge report means absolutely nothing, because in your comprehensive Celestine/Nihilist Report, you forgot to replace two Nihilist pacts, and I would have had to re-send a report anyways to cover up your mistakes.
Once again, the Celestines were GIVEN everything by Estarra, meanwhile, the Nihilists would've had to do everything by themselves, gone through the Envoy system, and would've had to go through the same process as this Minstrely report.
I don't know how much more needs to be said on this. The administration has favored the Celestines and Kelly in particular, has taken Kelly's word as gospel, and Kelly took advantage of it (like I expect any player too).
The rest of us have to suffer and pick up the pieces for the mistakes you guys have made. Ultimately, this is a game, and it isn't worth it when you have to go through the amount of effort needed compared to the amount of effort gone through to support Kelly.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
I do recall informing you a few weeks ago @Silvanus that Estarra was happy with you filing a special report for the Nihilists to re-open their issues with the pledge system after the most recent changes.
Saying nothing has happened from the admin is false.
I would also like to point something out again.
I WOULD HAVE TO DO IT ALL. The Celestine envoy never even said a single word about anything at all.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
My impression during that whole thing was that nothing any player could have said would have removed shackles from that list entirely.
EDIT: As in, there is something to be said for not being passive about it, but you can't lay the existence of shackles at the feet of any player for doing anything. With or without @Kaimanahi's support, it would have been in. Without her support, there would conceivably have been NO caveats or restrictions at all.
This is false, @Kaimanahi was given full control over the direction of the report and Estarra decided that her and her alone would decide the outcome. It was then our job to convince her that it was too much. She could have stopped shackles from being put in, but she didn't.
I'll note that it was that report and the reaction from it that put me in the position I'm in now, we're aware that mistakes were made, and we're looking to ensure it doesn't repeat itself.
Yes your review will go through envoy scrutiny, however the decision is not with the envoys as to something passing or not, it's to the admin.
You've a chance to submit your own proposal, with your own ideas and make a case for it, there was a complaint that the admin did it for them, you're now saying we should break proceedure a second time. Two wrongs don't make a right, and you're being given an opportunity to make your own requests, which the Celestines didn't. We're not going to rectify an error by making a second one, I'm sorry that the Nihilists were short changed, and we're looking to resolve that by giving you a blank cheque with which to submit your own ideas.
In the interest of fairness I'll note the Celestines didn't get everything they asked for, they wanted to replace Karmic Healing with something more offensive, and were shut down. Speaking for myself at least, I don't hold a bias or favouritism to any of you, I judge reports on the merits of their argument, not on who they are or the class they choose to play.
We've learned a lot from this incident, and it'll affect all future reports that we look over.
Yeah, Kelly did have full control of the situation, she definitely could have done something about it.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited June 2015
Yeah, it was very clear to me certain players had full authority to stop this change, but did not. It's a hot mess. I still get heated about it, but for me, I get far me heated about envoys who abuse the system as an envoy who has strived to be fair to the extent of opting out of months of reports because I did not think the SDs needed any buffs.
Make the Celestines resubmit the Report of Pledges.
You can reverese the Pledges to what they were, the Celestines will be fine with only 4 pledges in some Pacts. The Nihilists are, so I think the Celestines can be.
I also stepped down as Envoy because I don't want to deal with the bullshit. It's one thing to recognize your mistake, sure, I'll give you props to that, but actions speak louder than words, and you sit there and have yet to fix the mistake, but recognize that you have made the mistakes.
I'm not asking you to make two wrongs. I'm asking you to fix your mistakes.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
That's the problem with "we'll just wait and see how it plays out", it puts all the onus on particular envoys to argue for changes away from a new status quo, instead of from the previous one.
If the appointment of @Baelor is to curb or altogether avoid future incidents like this, why not also undo the incident in the first place?
As @Silvanus, @Shuyin, @Celina and the rest have pointed out - the incident centers around the ultimate decision being given to @Kaimanahi as opposed to the admin, altogether bypassing the report system, and she definitely took full advantage of it.
Why not undo it? Rescind the change that gave Celestines Shackles and put it through the envoy system again then allow both Nihilists and Celestines to submit their reports through the system. If, even after all of the envoy commenting, the admin decide to put it in, then at least it would have put the report through the right channels as it should have in the first place.
Has there ever been word on what the now retired life runes were going to be replaced with that can be shared with the forum going non envoys?
Tempted to invest some refunded credits into my own ship, so I can hold hunts and what not with whoever I want and not on an org ship.
Also, is there a reason none of the aethership stuff is listed on the cash for arties sale?
I'll note that it was that report and the reaction from it that put me in the position I'm in now, we're aware that mistakes were made, and we're looking to ensure it doesn't repeat itself.
Yes your review will go through envoy scrutiny, however the decision is not with the envoys as to something passing or not, it's to the admin.
Just wanted to make that really clear.
You can keep hounding us on having false 'control' over something that we clearly didn't have any control over. Yurika made our report and asked for blackout - it got rejected, I appealed for a review of the old report plus the redundant pledge powers that we had. To be fair, I wasn't consulted about what these new pledge powers were going to be either, it appeared in a new report. I commented and asked for a caveat on shackles-inqui and got hounded on by other envoys to speak on envoyt instead (maybe to drag out the debate which has been resurrected multiple times and keeps going in circles in the course of let's say a month or two?) because apparently comments on reports don't count to them and it's the real debate on the envoy channel that does.
No matter how many times you hound Kelly or me on how we could've prevented it from happening, it's pretty much moot since you're clearly targeting the wrong people. It wasn't us you could've presented your case to, it's "to the admin".
I can understand why it's so easy to target us instead though because we're just players, you don't risk anything by continuously pointing out that it was the player's fault but Lerad has explained it well enough:
And can we PLEASE stop bringing up Marcella every time something bad happens? She messed up, we get that. But she's good and trying to fix her mistakes. Repeatedly bringing them up is just shitty.
I'm not sure how you can even try and say that - Estarra literally said 'I'll let Kelly decide' and told Kelly to think about it and send her a message and that's what they would go with.
You were there as well, you saw that same exact conversation, so don't sit here and try to deny it.
Man, did we imagine Estarra giving sole approval to Kelly or something?
Why is it that both Kelly and Saoirse seem to operate on the idea that they had no control over the process when literally every other envoy present at the time says otherwise?
I was there, Estarra said that Kelly gets to message her with the decision and that it was every other envoys job to convince Kelly.
Are we getting RL False Memoried here? Maybe some envoy gaslighting? Wtf.
Btw not sure what the bolded has to do with the shackles report, considering Baelor was referring to the nihilist special report that will go under the regular system. Not applicable, keep up.
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited June 2015
edit: Nevermind. "I was allowed to do it so it's not my fault," is crap and I'll just leave it at that.
I really feel for the Nihilists - they've lost or are losing omen, ectoplasm and a chunk of pact powers. Why couldn't an admin wave a magic wand and give them a little something back? I know, inquisition for Nihilists!
Ok a little extreme, but if anyone can't see what a huge slap in the face it was to the Nihilists to give Celestines shackles, they're being deliberately obtuse.
So, do we know which version of Synkarin's solutions will actually be implemented? I.e., is it the 50% instakill, or the 33% instakill that he suggested later in the report (without changing the official solutions)? It seems to me that 5 power for a 50% instakill is a little low, considering that nihilism wrack requires the target to also be bound or paralysed (which I think is harder to stick than hearing). Absolve only requires 50% mana, but costs 8 power. I understand that I'm (thankfully) not an envoy, and I'm not trying to rehash the entire envoy process here; I'm simply curious if anyone knows exactly how this report will be implemented.
I'm also curious if the envoys and/or admin would like to see other skills that are only successful if certain conditions have been met changed such that they still harm the target even if the major conditions aren't met. For instance, should wrack or absolve sap mana and give an affliction if cast on someone who isn't below 50% mana? This isn't meant to be a pointed question attacking the new skills; I'm honestly curious if people think this is a direction skills should go in the future, or if this should be something unique to very few skills.
Edit: To clarify the second question: I read in the report that if the instakill fails because the target isn't below the ego threshold, the target will instead get an ego drain and a 2 second blackout.
Feel free to read the report, 1340, where a few of these questions are already answered
But in general, instakills are dependent on much more than just the individual skill, for instance TP egokill is 5p with no other condition than 50% ego. Preserve is an instakill skill that afflicts and damages if it fails, as well as the power cost changing.
The point being is that nothing asked for in this report is 'new' as in these type of mechanics exist in the game already.
Wow, even I have to call shenanigans on @Saoirse right there. As I and a number of other envoys clearly recall: Estarra gave sole judgment to @Kaimanahi and flat out said that she'll implement whatever Kaimanahi decided.
The outcome was *completely* within Kaimanahi's sphere of control, and claiming that none of it was is, quite frankly, insulting. We knew the circumstances, we saw the outcome, and trying to claim the situation was something else is just deluding yourself.
Comments
Saying nothing has happened from the admin is false.
Estarra went to the Celestines with ideas.
Telling me that I can re-send Pledge report means absolutely nothing, because in your comprehensive Celestine/Nihilist Report, you forgot to replace two Nihilist pacts, and I would have had to re-send a report anyways to cover up your mistakes.
The rest of us have to suffer and pick up the pieces for the mistakes you guys have made. Ultimately, this is a game, and it isn't worth it when you have to go through the amount of effort needed compared to the amount of effort gone through to support Kelly.
Yes your review will go through envoy scrutiny, however the decision is not with the envoys as to something passing or not, it's to the admin.
You've a chance to submit your own proposal, with your own ideas and make a case for it, there was a complaint that the admin did it for them, you're now saying we should break proceedure a second time. Two wrongs don't make a right, and you're being given an opportunity to make your own requests, which the Celestines didn't. We're not going to rectify an error by making a second one, I'm sorry that the Nihilists were short changed, and we're looking to resolve that by giving you a blank cheque with which to submit your own ideas.
In the interest of fairness I'll note the Celestines didn't get everything they asked for, they wanted to replace Karmic Healing with something more offensive, and were shut down. Speaking for myself at least, I don't hold a bias or favouritism to any of you, I judge reports on the merits of their argument, not on who they are or the class they choose to play.
We've learned a lot from this incident, and it'll affect all future reports that we look over.
You can reverese the Pledges to what they were, the Celestines will be fine with only 4 pledges in some Pacts. The Nihilists are, so I think the Celestines can be.
Why is it that both Kelly and Saoirse seem to operate on the idea that they had no control over the process when literally every other envoy present at the time says otherwise?
I was there, Estarra said that Kelly gets to message her with the decision and that it was every other envoys job to convince Kelly.
Are we getting RL False Memoried here? Maybe some envoy gaslighting? Wtf.
Btw not sure what the bolded has to do with the shackles report, considering Baelor was referring to the nihilist special report that will go under the regular system. Not applicable, keep up.
Ok a little extreme, but if anyone can't see what a huge slap in the face it was to the Nihilists to give Celestines shackles, they're being deliberately obtuse.
Edit: Hell me and Marcella even hashed everything out oocly. Still hate each other IC but no ooc animosity remains.