If it helps, the Viscanti race was mainly created through the interbreeding of: Mugwump, Orclach, Taurian, Trill and Elfen (not sure if any other).
You can see these traits in the race itself. The hard sturdy flesh of the Orclach, the horns of the Taurian, the wings (in some) of the Trill, the pointed ears of the Elfen. As for Mugwump, i'm going to have to say their general intellect (cant pinpoint anything else). Loboshigaru, while one of the banner families, I dont really see in the Viscanti mix, perhaps their regenerative skills?
I always found it weird that n'Lochli was suggested to be a lobo house in the Malacoda quest. Weren't they supposed to be the stuff of children's scary stories, rarely seen and totally not civil enough to form a noble family? If n'Lochli predates the Taint Wars, why was everyone so surprised any time lobos showed up?
I always found it weird that n'Lochli was suggested to be a lobo house in the Malacoda quest. Weren't they supposed to be the stuff of children's scary stories, rarely seen and totally not civil enough to form a noble family? If n'Lochli predates the Taint Wars, why was everyone so surprised any time lobos showed up?
I dont know where you got the scary stories part. The n'Lochli were a rather proud family, with ties to the Fatalists. The Malacoda manor was their 'summer home' if you would like to call it, and was also the location of the demise of many of their family.
The ur’Guard have arrived here in great numbers, and many ranks of krokani and taurian warriors have also assembled here in answer to the Emperor’s call. Even a tribe of loboshigaru has been seen awaiting the Emperor outside of the Gaudiguch!
A pack of loboshigaru, the wolf-like beings rarely seen in those days, came howling with glee at the prospect of bloodshed. I must admit they frightened me as every furrikin cub was always warned that if he misbehaved, “The loboshigaru will come and eat you!”
The ur’Guard have arrived here in great numbers, and many ranks of krokani and taurian warriors have also assembled here in answer to the Emperor’s call. Even a tribe of loboshigaru has been seen awaiting the Emperor outside of the Gaudiguch!
A pack of loboshigaru, the wolf-like beings rarely seen in those days, came howling with glee at the prospect of bloodshed. I must admit they frightened me as every furrikin cub was always warned that if he misbehaved, “The loboshigaru will come and eat you!”
lol. I took that as a general folklore tale told to keep young furrikin's in line. Like a Mother telling her child to behave or Urlach will come and get him.
Folklore tends to have its roots in common beliefs, though. If the loboshigaru are something that you use to scare children, there's probably a reason. At the very least they'd be thing that people didn't see very often, to prevent people from forming favorable opinions about them, and a few atrocities under their belts to make them scary.
The rarely seen bit is just a statement of fact, and it doesn't really make sense if there was a significant loboshigaru population in a metropolitan center. I'd guess that means that while there was a lobo house, there wasn't a huge population of them in Magnagora.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
Rage issues are built into the lobo canon too, hinted at here in the line "howling with glee at the prospect of bloodshed" but also in some of Master Quettle's comments. But like Portius said, if there was a known family of noble, stately lobos living in pre-taint Magnagora, they don't really work as boogeymen. You might even imagine a family with means and status would actively suppress those attitudes, or make positive examples of themselves, to protect their reputation. So for lobos to have the reputation of being rare, ferocious beasts, House n'Lochli must have been fairly small, or obscure, or not exclusively lobo (and the monastery population must have still been a secret). Under those conditions most people wouldn't have firsthand experience ever meeting one, so the stories about the wild packs could spread.
(I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. Just trying to reconcile my reading of the histories, the Malacoda quest, and what I know about lobo lore.)
Rage issues are built into the lobo canon too, hinted at here in the line "howling with glee at the prospect of bloodshed" but also in some of Master Quettle's comments. But like Portius said, if there was a known family of noble, stately lobos living in pre-taint Magnagora, they don't really work as boogeymen. You might even imagine a family with means and status would actively suppress those attitudes, or make positive examples of themselves, to protect their reputation. So for lobos to have the reputation of being rare, ferocious beasts, House n'Lochli must have been fairly small, or obscure, or not exclusively lobo (and the monastery population must have still been a secret). Under those conditions most people wouldn't have firsthand experience ever meeting one, so the stories about the wild packs could spread.
(I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. Just trying to reconcile my reading of the histories, the Malacoda quest, and what I know about lobo lore.)
Funnily enough, House n'Lochli was the scholar house and focused on knowledge. Add that to your confusion :P
My guess is the admin that wrote the n'Lochli lore (is there more beyond the Malacoda quest?) was just a damned furry and was all like screw it, lobos need more representation outside the monastery.
Rage issues are built into the lobo canon too, hinted at here in the line "howling with glee at the prospect of bloodshed" but also in some of Master Quettle's comments. But like Portius said, if there was a known family of noble, stately lobos living in pre-taint Magnagora, they don't really work as boogeymen. You might even imagine a family with means and status would actively suppress those attitudes, or make positive examples of themselves, to protect their reputation. So for lobos to have the reputation of being rare, ferocious beasts, House n'Lochli must have been fairly small, or obscure, or not exclusively lobo (and the monastery population must have still been a secret). Under those conditions most people wouldn't have firsthand experience ever meeting one, so the stories about the wild packs could spread.
(I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. Just trying to reconcile my reading of the histories, the Malacoda quest, and what I know about lobo lore.)
The n'Lochli were quite influential in the politics of pre-Taint Magnagora, and retained their prestige in the days following the foundation of the new government under the first Warlord. As to the question of their founding/preferred/predominant race? Bear in mind the Elder Wars lasted for thousands of years (according to the Books of Xyl and Meridian) post-sharding. The book of Meridian mentions cities which are lost so completely there is no trace to be found. It is very possible the early n'Lochli were at some point an eclectic bunch who married and welcomed different races, which is quite plausible given there was ample time to do so and Magnagora has always been considered a cosmopolitan place.
Everyone spoke whatever the accepted imperial tongue was, clearly!
Couple with the above assumption that there may very well have been ``local'' customs and partial dialects, one particular notion comes to mind: When in Rome kill Romansdo as Romans. It is quite conceivable 1) some immigrants would adopt the local customs, 2) norms would converge and amalgamate over time.
I would be surprised if there was not a merian based house in Magnagora originally.
That prospect would surprise me greatly, because Celest and Magnagora were in stiff competition (politically, commercially, scientifically, and culturally) for quite some time even before the Taint Wars. I doubt the Empire would have lasted another thousand years in the absence of Project Cosmic Hope. Being that as it may, perhaps there were a few ennobled merians within Magnagora, but the first acts of the first Warlord were to expel all merians and elfen from the city, which suggests to me neither possessed much political clout. While it is quite easy to banish (or even slay) a few outlanders, such a manoeuver would have been impossible against an organization approaching that of even Lesser House status. Furthermore, since the edict was applied to all merians and elfens, a fighting chance might have been made to reject or block such pogroms if the two such factions could wield their influence in concert. Instead all the merian and elfen peoples were dealt with in almost an instant, suggesting they were indeed an unorganized collection of independent foreigners. Hardly anyone in any position to resist the policy.
I think I'm going to stick with ``The odd lobo or two might not be out of the ordinary for a house of n'Lochli's stature, given the sheer amount of time and populations involved.'' for the n'Lochli question, and ``When in Rome'' for the i'Xiia question. Perhaps the i'Xiia were not founded by mugwumps, but all of their available history is dominated by mugwump i'Xiia in the commanding positions.
Also, I remember Estarra once saying that the people of Magnagora were pretty vain aristocrats. Is there a missing god who might have sharded into a race that no longer exists?
Eyos comes to mind. He splintered, but nothing was found. Perhaps not quite the answer you wanted, so what about the sileni peoples? They were part of the host who rescued Lord Meridian, as mentioned in the Book of Meridian. I am drawing a blank when trying to find any other mention.
Is Magnagora really that old, though? I thought it was started as a colony by Celest after the Vernal wars.
This is from the aftermath section:
"Predominantly merian, a seaborn race, they built a great city upon the island"
Which leads me to assume that Celest is being built in the aftermath of the wars, and a later passage (copied below) leads me to believe that Magnagora was founded afterwards in the second wave of city building after the war. I seem to recall there being a quiz that said Gaudiguch and Hallifax were older than Celest, but them being in the elided part of this passage leads me to believe that they were probably founded after the war, too.
"But Celest could not contain all those who sought to partake of its
wonders, and soon citizens of Celest spilled out to other parts of the
Basin, founding other cities and researching other planes of existence.
The Communes watched the inevitable expansion with a growing
misgiving, for the thirst for power seemed to outpace any pause for
wisdom.
The next 500 years spanned the Golden Age of the Holy Celestine Empire,
when civilization spread throughout the Basin of Life and other planes
were discovered, and great cities founded, each with a nexus of power
unique unto itself. Mages wielded new elemental powers, and guardians
of the outer planes developed competing philosophies, perhaps evolved
by the nature of the plane they guarded....
The City of Magnagora held sway over the elemental plane of earth and
the outer plane of Shallamar, where lived three powerful beings who
were said to be sisters and called themselves the Fates. Geomancers,
the masters of earth, and the Fatalists, guardians of Shallamar,
created the Stone of Truth, the last nexus of power."
The point to all that is that I'm guessing that races which went extinct during the Vernal Wars probably didn't have much of anything to do with any of the Magnagoran houses. Assuming Magnagora was founded after the Vernal Wars the extinct races couldn't have had any part in it.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
Celest was indeed founded in the sea and before Magnagora, and I also doubt any clangoru or sileni were part of the founding populations. On the other hand, the question remains somewhat open regarding the several families. Were these families established in Celest first, and then migrated to Magnagora, or did pauper colonists become great once in Magnagora, or is this a mixed bag?
Only the families approved as Historical could answer with any certainty, but they might not necessarily be eager to tell since that could either ``paint theirself into a corner'' or be annulled by some future admin-content. I know I would be careful about what I said, and possibly run it through the Plots board first. The latter could take months and not necessarily be published exactly as I expected either.
Magnagora had merians hanging out, there's an Inalai working in the Asylum in cooperation with an i'Xiia. i'Xiia certainly originated in Balach, hence their being given the asylum by Ladantine after Project Soulforge spat fallout all over their lands(and possibly also Ghalphalshi? not sure the timescale that one was at). It's possible that the name "i'Xiia" is itself a romanization(well, y'know what I mean) of the actual mugwump one.
The question in the quiz in question was the ordering of the founding of the current three cities, the correct answer being gaudi > halli > magna > new celest. Magnagora was founded probably between 100 and 300 ICE, can't recall if the ur'Guard operation reports mentioned it at all. Centuries after the vernal wars, in any case.
I'm not convinced that n'Lochli was all that prevalent within pre-PCH magnagora. They certainly existed, mostly within the House of Prophets if I recall correctly, but that wasn't a tremendously open institution and it was never clear that n'Lochli was itself all that populated. Including the fact that Malacoda n'Lochli were a branch of the main n'Lochli family, it seems possible that only that branch was lobo. A small portion of a small house, working with the Prophets, seems like the sort of thing that people at large wouldn't know about and maybe would even be surprised by.
Concerning the lobos as scholarly point, pre-viscanti n'Lochli was mostly fortune telling, something that might more accurately be called spiritual. The main sciencey stuff, to my knowledge, came about after a: working under i'Xiia, and you know how they are, and b: heavy and long term exposure to taint, which's good fo yo brain. Or can be, if it doesn't rot it. Y'know how that stuff is, very feast or famine.
Do remember that Magnagora was founded and named on the basis of the verses of Magnora (thus, the similar names), given to the budding nation by the fates themselves. Thus, it may stand to the reason that the infamous Magnagora names are in fact some play on Divine tongue (which is what the verses were written in) and thus didnt originate from any racial tongue.
Additionally, no, there was no special unheard race in Magnagora before the taint. There would be records and mentions of that (im sure we dont have -that- much of a blind spot to recent (yes in retrospect the tainting was recent) history.
I'm going to trust @Marcella and @Kalnid when it comes to canonical lore. I find the sooner I realize they are smarter than me, the smarter I myself become. Yes, there are quite a few lobos hanging about the Malacoda manor. While this can be explained any number of different ways, the fact remains there were some ``civilized'' lobos outside of the several "wildlands" and communes. The documents within the Presidio of the Damned do indicate the n'Lochli were not some petty house either. Perhaps not a Great House at the time, but certainly had some political clout which stemmed from before the Tainted Wars and continued for quite some time thereafter. Those same documents also indicate merian and elfen were living in the city. The former makes sense, given Magnagora was a colony. The latter can only be explained if one considers the elfen populations to be slight, given most of their kind would be unwilling to abandon their culture; sure, a few might have enjoyed politics and science and culture and all the other usual trappings of Civilization (there's a darn good documentary on Uruk and Ishar's Faustian gift/curse of ``Civilization'', the name of which escapes me right now!) but I doubt there was a sizable population of elfen. Given the speed with which the first Warlord's pogroms were executed, I also suspect the merian populations were quite slight.
Perhaps to address the original post by @Daganev. Were the the Great Houses magnagora founded by merian or elfen? Even were that speculation true, Magnagoran houses did not seem to have sizable merian or elfen populations before the Comming of the Taint lest the first Warlord would not have been able to execute his policies.
So it is possible the question might be answered (insh Alah, or, only God can know that answer), but I'll have to go with ``You don't need to trace your geneology to before Noah because everyone else died''. It doesn't matter if some merian or elfen founded some (or even all) of the numerous houses of Magnagora because they all died in the floodpogroms. The point is made moot by the Taint and Magnagora's embrace of it.
The n'Lochli in Malacoda were only one branch of the family. The PC branch is descended from a cousin of Eluan's, and is most closely related to Allegra n'Lochli in the Presidio, I believe. If I recall correctly, once or twice when I've greeted her, I've got some comment on us being family or something.
As far as races go, I wouldn't really say that each house had a particular race. Magnagora before the Taint was fairly metropolitan, which schools (set up and administered by the n'Lochli, by the by), science institutions, etc etc. While there was likely some inbreeding going on, I think it's a fair assumption to say that there were political marriages too, which would eventually result in more of a mix of races.
@Daganev: Sadly, the Presidio is just too much in demand for my confirmation efforts. Any time I go there the safe is empty, some Taurian guard is Awol, and Stekdel always resonds with ``just one more part''. Someday I'll get all the confirmation, but it looks like not today.
Those same documents also indicate merian and elfen were living in the city. The former makes sense, given Magnagora was a colony. The latter can only be explained if one considers the elfen populations to be slight, given most of their kind would be unwilling to abandon their culture; sure, a few might have enjoyed politics and science and culture and all the other usual trappings of Civilization (there's a darn good documentary on Uruk and Ishar's Faustian gift/curse of ``Civilization'', the name of which escapes me right now!) but I doubt there was a sizable population of elfen. Given the speed with which the first Warlord's pogroms were executed, I also suspect the merian populations were quite slight.
Actually, I've always imagined that Magnagora probably had the largest elfen population of any city in the pre-taint times. Magnagora is described as having many sprawling, beautiful gardens, and the area that is now the Blasted Lands was covered in flowers and green, sprawling fields. Perhaps it was still insufferably small compared to the communes, but aesthetically, it might have been the closest thing to "home" comparative to Celest, Gaudiguch, or especially Hallifax.
This is also why (I feel) industry is so heavily emphasized in the post-taint RP. Much of the gardens gave way to the engine of progress, etc.
Comments
You can see these traits in the race itself. The hard sturdy flesh of the Orclach, the horns of the Taurian, the wings (in some) of the Trill, the pointed ears of the Elfen. As for Mugwump, i'm going to have to say their general intellect (cant pinpoint anything else). Loboshigaru, while one of the banner families, I dont really see in the Viscanti mix, perhaps their regenerative skills?
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
I dont know where you got the scary stories part. The n'Lochli were a rather proud family, with ties to the Fatalists. The Malacoda manor was their 'summer home' if you would like to call it, and was also the location of the demise of many of their family.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
The rarely seen bit is just a statement of fact, and it doesn't really make sense if there was a significant loboshigaru population in a metropolitan center. I'd guess that means that while there was a lobo house, there wasn't a huge population of them in Magnagora.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Funnily enough, House n'Lochli was the scholar house and focused on knowledge. Add that to your confusion :P
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
The n'Lochli were quite influential in the politics of pre-Taint Magnagora, and retained their prestige in the days following the foundation of the new government under the first Warlord. As to the question of their founding/preferred/predominant race? Bear in mind the Elder Wars lasted for thousands of years (according to the Books of Xyl and Meridian) post-sharding. The book of Meridian mentions cities which are lost so completely there is no trace to be found. It is very possible the early n'Lochli were at some point an eclectic bunch who married and welcomed different races, which is quite plausible given there was ample time to do so and Magnagora has always been considered a cosmopolitan place.
Couple with the above assumption that there may very well have been ``local'' customs and partial dialects, one particular notion comes to mind: When in Rome kill Romansdo as Romans. It is quite conceivable 1) some immigrants would adopt the local customs, 2) norms would converge and amalgamate over time.
That prospect would surprise me greatly, because Celest and Magnagora were in stiff competition (politically, commercially, scientifically, and culturally) for quite some time even before the Taint Wars. I doubt the Empire would have lasted another thousand years in the absence of Project Cosmic Hope. Being that as it may, perhaps there were a few ennobled merians within Magnagora, but the first acts of the first Warlord were to expel all merians and elfen from the city, which suggests to me neither possessed much political clout. While it is quite easy to banish (or even slay) a few outlanders, such a manoeuver would have been impossible against an organization approaching that of even Lesser House status. Furthermore, since the edict was applied to all merians and elfens, a fighting chance might have been made to reject or block such pogroms if the two such factions could wield their influence in concert. Instead all the merian and elfen peoples were dealt with in almost an instant, suggesting they were indeed an unorganized collection of independent foreigners. Hardly anyone in any position to resist the policy.
I think I'm going to stick with ``The odd lobo or two might not be out of the ordinary for a house of n'Lochli's stature, given the sheer amount of time and populations involved.'' for the n'Lochli question, and ``When in Rome'' for the i'Xiia question. Perhaps the i'Xiia were not founded by mugwumps, but all of their available history is dominated by mugwump i'Xiia in the commanding positions.
This is from the aftermath section:
"Predominantly merian, a seaborn race, they built a great city upon the island"
Which leads me to assume that Celest is being built in the aftermath of the wars, and a later passage (copied below) leads me to believe that Magnagora was founded afterwards in the second wave of city building after the war. I seem to recall there being a quiz that said Gaudiguch and Hallifax were older than Celest, but them being in the elided part of this passage leads me to believe that they were probably founded after the war, too.
"But Celest could not contain all those who sought to partake of its wonders, and soon citizens of Celest spilled out to other parts of the Basin, founding other cities and researching other planes of existence. The Communes watched the inevitable expansion with a growing misgiving, for the thirst for power seemed to outpace any pause for wisdom.
The next 500 years spanned the Golden Age of the Holy Celestine Empire, when civilization spread throughout the Basin of Life and other planes were discovered, and great cities founded, each with a nexus of power unique unto itself. Mages wielded new elemental powers, and guardians of the outer planes developed competing philosophies, perhaps evolved by the nature of the plane they guarded....
The City of Magnagora held sway over the elemental plane of earth and the outer plane of Shallamar, where lived three powerful beings who were said to be sisters and called themselves the Fates. Geomancers, the masters of earth, and the Fatalists, guardians of Shallamar, created the Stone of Truth, the last nexus of power."
The point to all that is that I'm guessing that races which went extinct during the Vernal Wars probably didn't have much of anything to do with any of the Magnagoran houses. Assuming Magnagora was founded after the Vernal Wars the extinct races couldn't have had any part in it.
Only the families approved as Historical could answer with any certainty, but they might not necessarily be eager to tell since that could either ``paint theirself into a corner'' or be annulled by some future admin-content. I know I would be careful about what I said, and possibly run it through the Plots board first. The latter could take months and not necessarily be published exactly as I expected either.
The question in the quiz in question was the ordering of the founding of the current three cities, the correct answer being gaudi > halli > magna > new celest. Magnagora was founded probably between 100 and 300 ICE, can't recall if the ur'Guard operation reports mentioned it at all. Centuries after the vernal wars, in any case.
I'm not convinced that n'Lochli was all that prevalent within pre-PCH magnagora. They certainly existed, mostly within the House of Prophets if I recall correctly, but that wasn't a tremendously open institution and it was never clear that n'Lochli was itself all that populated. Including the fact that Malacoda n'Lochli were a branch of the main n'Lochli family, it seems possible that only that branch was lobo. A small portion of a small house, working with the Prophets, seems like the sort of thing that people at large wouldn't know about and maybe would even be surprised by.
Concerning the lobos as scholarly point, pre-viscanti n'Lochli was mostly fortune telling, something that might more accurately be called spiritual. The main sciencey stuff, to my knowledge, came about after a: working under i'Xiia, and you know how they are, and b: heavy and long term exposure to taint, which's good fo yo brain. Or can be, if it doesn't rot it. Y'know how that stuff is, very feast or famine.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Additionally, no, there was no special unheard race in Magnagora before the taint. There would be records and mentions of that (im sure we dont have -that- much of a blind spot to recent (yes in retrospect the tainting was recent) history.
Those same documents also indicate merian and elfen were living in the city. The former makes sense, given Magnagora was a colony. The latter can only be explained if one considers the elfen populations to be slight, given most of their kind would be unwilling to abandon their culture; sure, a few might have enjoyed politics and science and culture and all the other usual trappings of Civilization (there's a darn good documentary on Uruk and Ishar's Faustian gift/curse of ``Civilization'', the name of which escapes me right now!) but I doubt there was a sizable population of elfen. Given the speed with which the first Warlord's pogroms were executed, I also suspect the merian populations were quite slight.
Perhaps to address the original post by @Daganev. Were the the Great Houses magnagora founded by merian or elfen? Even were that speculation true, Magnagoran houses did not seem to have sizable merian or elfen populations before the Comming of the Taint lest the first Warlord would not have been able to execute his policies.
So it is possible the question might be answered (insh Alah, or, only God can know that answer), but I'll have to go with ``You don't need to trace your geneology to before Noah because everyone else died''. It doesn't matter if some merian or elfen founded some (or even all) of the numerous houses of Magnagora because they all died in the floodpogroms. The point is made moot by the Taint and Magnagora's embrace of it.