Mm... that kinda suggests that true neutrality is an incredibly short-sighted philosophy, but I don't agree that the choice was a neutral one. Self-preservation works better when talking about valuing your needs above others: Do you allow a stranger to be eaten by a pursuing dragon, or run back to help despite knowing it's probably suicidal? The former might be a neutral choice(it still might be, even if it were a friend), but it isn't comparable to the Taint, i.e. the thing that was potentially going to destroy the world, including Serenwilde. There's no apocalyptic consequences for failing to help someone not be eaten.
Considering the larger circumstances, and that they were potentially acting AGAINST their own best interests(or against nature's/a friend's), it was at best reckless. The fact that it worked out for them also doesn't negate the callousness of the decision, like hoarding food while you watch children starve on the streets. Defining evil as being a willful act is too simple- inaction is a choice too, with moral consequences. Evil thrives by good standing aside and whatnot.
Afterwards, rather than taking any personal responsibility for the result, or helping to fix it, they blame the victims and proclaim their own moral superiority(the "pure forest"). To be fair, Glomdoring does have the baby-killing to account for, but Serenwilde still comes across as selfish to callously evil.
I'm not biased.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
I'm not exactly sure what help people would expect Serenwilde have given to the tainted Glomdoring that wanted to maul the faces off anything that wasn't tainted. Initially, just going into the tainted areas was a death sentence by itself.
It's not the help -after- Glomdoring was tainted, but the help before. The centaurs bailed, but frankly I find it very strange that the Winter Court would just leave the Summer Court to its fate and then go on to declare it anathema to nature's way and begin antagonising it.
It's less indicative of evil on Serenwilde's part as much as seemingly bad storytelling. I think I'm lacking some key facts here.
EDIT: Or maybe not bad, per se, but necessary so that, from an OOC perspective, there would be two communes that are quite different instead of two nature communes or two dark nature communes.
EDIT 2: I keep coming back to this because I keep having thoughts. It's bad storytelling because there's a seeming plot hole in the story. Rowena and Brennan chose to stay in the forest, but why would Serenwilde let them do that instead of, idk, grabbing a Master Ravenwood seed (and Rowena and Brennan, Night and Raven) and taking off with it to regrow Gloriana somewhere else or something?
A. They were afraid of being Tainted themselves and so withdrew into Serenwilde to prepare for the incoming Taint. This is cowardly.
B. Machinations of the Winter Court found a convenient way to eliminate Gloriana. Cruel, twisted, and very unlikely.
For some reason, the above two reasons just can't click for me. Awaiting further data.
EDIT 3: Maybe they would've been able to do something if Hallifax hadn't accelerated the Taint's advance towards Gloriana. But who's keeping score?
From my understanding regarding how it all went down with Gloriana, the three nature communes (Serenwilde, Gloriana, and Ackleberry) were all trying to find a way to save all three forests because they were the absolute last (everything else outside the Basin was destroyed or corrupted). They couldn't leave any of the forests behind, because doing so would put the entire natural world at risk.
I think there was an understanding between the leaders of the three communes to see whether they could withstand the Taint at all. It was only when Gloriana was overrun did they see that they didn't have enough power to withstand the Taint; Ackleberry then chose to tear itself to a new universe and Serenwiilde, being the farthest from the Taint, waited.
It wasn't Serenwilde being cold cowards or Gloriana being blind fools, not really; they just knew that they didn't know enough, and that they'd have to risk a few things for the greater good.
You can't just take a seed and run. The Master Ravenwood would still be there, defenceless, and once it's tainted the Summer Court and Night and Raven fall with it, seed or no. You'd need to completely abandon the entire Gloriana, and they weren't willing to do that.
Marilynth had to destroy the Pool of Stars to prevent the same - and she was a Vernal, newly-raised of the Pool (and so it would be weaker). Ackleberry chose to tear themselves out of reality once they saw that Gloriana wasn't strong enough to hold off the Taint.
The important part here is that they lacked other options and thought they could hold it off.
Of course that's only to do with Gloriana, and not Serenwilde's later lack of involvement.
Making it more tragic for Glomdoring, Ackleberry didn't try to help before it got taken over either. Maybe that's why Glomdoring took an grieving Gib and turned him into the Swampghast Ebonglom Wyrdling. Their revenge, and they're still working on Serenwilde.
BTW, what was the court of Ackleberry called? Autumn Court?
I'm just saying, they sure didn't shove wyrden essence down Gib's throat.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I think there was an understanding between the leaders of the three communes to see whether they could withstand the Taint at all. It was only when Gloriana was overrun did they see that they didn't have enough power to withstand the Taint; Ackleberry then chose to tear itself to a new universe and Serenwiilde, being the farthest from the Taint, waited.
It wasn't Serenwilde being cold cowards or Gloriana being blind fools, not really; they just knew that they didn't know enough, and that they'd have to risk a few things for the greater good.
Mm... that kinda suggests that true neutrality is an incredibly short-sighted philosophy, but I don't agree that the choice was a neutral one. Self-preservation works better when talking about valuing your needs above others: Do you allow a stranger to be eaten by a pursuing dragon, or run back to help despite knowing it's probably suicidal? The former might be a neutral choice(it still might be, even if it were a friend), but it isn't comparable to the Taint, i.e. the thing that was potentially going to destroy the world, including Serenwilde. There's no apocalyptic consequences for failing to help someone not be eaten.
Considering the larger circumstances, and that they were potentially acting AGAINST their own best interests(or against nature's/a friend's), it was at best reckless. The fact that it worked out for them also doesn't negate the callousness of the decision, like hoarding food while you watch children starve on the streets. Defining evil as being a willful act is too simple- inaction is a choice too, with moral consequences. Evil thrives by good standing aside and whatnot.
Afterwards, rather than taking any personal responsibility for the result, or helping to fix it, they blame the victims and proclaim their own moral superiority(the "pure forest"). To be fair, Glomdoring does have the baby-killing to account for, but Serenwilde still comes across as selfish to callously evil.
I'm not biased.
Again, from pretty much every event and piece of history that we've seen... Serenwilde is a victim. This is also possibly because we barely ever actually see them in the histories.
The Slaghora'ruin cut away part of the forest and in the Nature Wars, they tried to stand up for their beliefs and were cut in half for it. (which needed an elder with the eye of dynara to mostly repair)
In the taint wars the only thing we see of Serenwilde is them considering running away and then not for reasons, then they decide to have a spine and refused to save their enemies that were destroying themselves (because Serenwilde you know, isn't actually capable of actively doing something like that) only to give up on that idea and save some of them.
In the battle to protect nature they're slowly but consistently losing ground.
We also don't see all that much of them in the taint wars, they're apparently some ultimately unimportant entity shoved off to the side. We don't see what they tried to do to help Gloriana, if anything, we do know however that they were preparing to do exactly what Ackleberry did.
But lets also consider that, while Gloriana had already fallen, so had every city except for Magnagora and the taint no longer held the presence of Kethuru. Sure, if the seals broke or Kethuru returned by other means then Serenwilde would have left but if they didn't it would be perhaps their only chance to reclaim the basin for nature. The death of Celest just means one less enemy to face in the future.
Again, for a place so heavily invested in it's history Serenwilde kinda seems conspicuously absent from a lot of the significant events that have shaped the world.
The seasonal courts don't really make sense to me, because it seems like only the three forests in the basin are actually potentially part of it. Meaning only three of the four seasons are represented.
And when you include Jojobo to balance it out... well if Sun is their Spirit so it seems like Summer would be the most logical court for them, the warm days when his strength is at it's peak.
But Gloriana is the Summer court.
The next one that might make sense is spring where the days are getting warmer so perhaps suns strength is growing and the vibrant growth could perhaps match a jungle... but from what we've seen Ackleberry and their floral theme fits that a bit more.
So that leaves Autumn because Serenwilde is apparently the Winter Court.
But Autumn is when the days are getting colder, the harvest has matured, the world is preparing for hibernation, readying itself for the rest that winter brings so that it can grow strongly in the next year.
I wouldn't think of the seasonal courts as part of their Great Spirit identity. You could much more easily make an argument for Gloriana being the Summer Court because it was beautiful and passionate, and Serenwilde being the Winter Court because it was pragmatic and severe rather than because Moon is somehow linked to coldness and Night to bikinis and volleyballs on a beach.
Also: geographical locations lend some flimsy support. Winter in the north, Summer in the south, Spring in the east and Autumn those are all of the seasons.
Yes. I meant Wyrdling. I keep confusing them up. You know what they say, you see one hideous Wyrden abomination and you've seen them all.
Gib lost his home and so in his altruism became a home for others
Ackleberry has strange Greater Spirits, doesn't fit the mold if you ask me. Bear makes sense, but Moon, Night and Lake? What? I'm sure it's related to some RL lore however.
As for alignments, I see Glomdoring as being Lawful selfish, which can be either Neutral or Evil depending on the context.
I wouldn't think of the seasonal courts as part of their Great Spirit identity. You could much more easily make an argument for Gloriana being the Summer Court because it was beautiful and passionate, and Serenwilde being the Winter Court because it was pragmatic and severe rather than because Moon is somehow linked to coldness and Night to bikinis and volleyballs on a beach.
A midsummer night is a thing :P But I'm not sure the connection between Moon and Winter.
Yes. I meant Wyrdling. I keep confusing them up. You know what they say, you see one hideous Wyrden abomination and you've seen them all.
Gib lost his home and so in his altruism became a home for others
Ackleberry has strange Greater Spirits, doesn't fit the mold if you ask me. Bear makes sense, but Moon, Night and Lake? What? I'm sure it's related to some RL lore however.
As for alignments, I see Glomdoring as being Lawful selfish, which can be either Neutral or Evil depending on the context.
You can have the Moon and the night sky reflected in a Lake? Just like mother Moon is in Night, and you can't have Night without Moon.
If anyone knows Jojoba's great nature spirits that would be helpful too.
If memory serves, Jojoba is the jungle turned Desert, and the spirits were Sun and Snake Lion.
I tend to think of a new moon as a night without moon, but there are also hours of night where the moon is not visible.
I'm really curious now why Ackelberry does have a "stars" spirit, or constelations, or planet, or some other sky spirit... cause you know, um alignments!
No, Sakarich turned into the Skarch after Zenos? ate it, which is I think what you're thinking of. Jojobo is still a jungle as far as I know. It's outside the Basin.
No, Sakarich turned into the Skarch after Zenos? ate it, which is I think what you're thinking of. Jojobo is still a jungle as far as I know. It's outside the Basin.
Ah thanks right.
And looking it up, I see that Sakarich was destroyed before great spirits were assigned to the forests, but it would have been Wolf and Rock. Definitly some RL lore I'm missing to make sense of it all.
I summon thee, SPIRIT OCEAN. Do you guys think Ocean would be Old Man of the Deep or Grandmother Ocean? Or something else?
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
I summon thee, SPIRIT OCEAN. Do you guys think Ocean would be Old Man of the Deep or Grandmother Ocean? Or something else?
Some traditions of the world have a deity of the Ocean that is set squarely in the "unknown" category, where some people who practice a tradition think it's a female, others a male, others both, others neither.
I summon thee, SPIRIT OCEAN. Do you guys think Ocean would be Old Man of the Deep or Grandmother Ocean? Or something else?
Female, obviously. Sarye is the closest thing Lusternia has to a universal ocean spirit, and both of the individual ocean spirits we know of (Lanikai in the Inner Sea; Jeitara of the Crystal Sea) are female. All kelpies appear to be female as well.
I summon thee, SPIRIT OCEAN. Do you guys think Ocean would be Old Man of the Deep or Grandmother Ocean? Or something else?
Female, obviously. Sarye is the closest thing Lusternia has to a universal ocean spirit, and both of the individual ocean spirits we know of (Lanikai in the Inner Sea; Jeitara of the Crystal Sea) are female. All kelpies appear to be female as well.
Plus the sea is almost always referred to as 'she' along with boats.
Comments
I'm not biased.
It's less indicative of evil on Serenwilde's part as much as seemingly bad storytelling. I think I'm lacking some key facts here.
EDIT: Or maybe not bad, per se, but necessary so that, from an OOC perspective, there would be two communes that are quite different instead of two nature communes or two dark nature communes.
EDIT 2: I keep coming back to this because I keep having thoughts. It's bad storytelling because there's a seeming plot hole in the story. Rowena and Brennan chose to stay in the forest, but why would Serenwilde let them do that instead of, idk, grabbing a Master Ravenwood seed (and Rowena and Brennan, Night and Raven) and taking off with it to regrow Gloriana somewhere else or something?
A. They were afraid of being Tainted themselves and so withdrew into Serenwilde to prepare for the incoming Taint. This is cowardly.
B. Machinations of the Winter Court found a convenient way to eliminate Gloriana. Cruel, twisted, and very unlikely.
For some reason, the above two reasons just can't click for me. Awaiting further data.
EDIT 3: Maybe they would've been able to do something if Hallifax hadn't accelerated the Taint's advance towards Gloriana. But who's keeping score?
It went to Achaea and became Eleusis.
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
Signature!
Plus the sea is almost always referred to as 'she' along with boats.