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Guild Covenants

EstarraEstarra
edited December 2012 in Common Grounds
Okay, I liked the idea of guilds being able to bond with each other (let's call it a covenant). To keep it simple:

A guild may only covenant with one other guild. This must be approved by all guild leaders as well as by a majority referendum in both guilds. Guilds that enter a covenant may favour members of the bonded guild (as well as their own, of course). (Perhaps a separate favour for the bonded guild that isn't quite as strong? In other words, they get two favours: one for their own guild and a lesser one for bonded guild members.) They also share each others GT channel and novice channel (but not GTS). They can read each other's newsboards (but only post on their own).

Are there any other basic features to share? I'd rather just start off simple with the above to see how it goes. I'd rather not have sharing powers, etc., as those sorts of major changes are more far reaching and should wait until we have more resources open up and we can see how a simple bond works out.

I'm also not adverse to the ideas about automating systems/advancement but that should be a separate thread (start one if you wish). Keep in mind that the more complicated we make things, the less likely we could do them any time soon. (I'm talking like 6 months out when I say any time soon.)
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Comments

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.

    Sounds great! I think this would alleviate the empty nest syndrome a lot.

    A couple things:

    Guild advance should be included so they can advance novices when the other guild is not around.

    The referendum might be a little redundant. If the three guild leaders are agreeing on it, I don't see why the guild itself would disagree.

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  • AstraeaAstraea
    edited December 2012
    I love this, am all for it, and think it would go a long way in keeping people from feeling all alone. 


    Edit: Additionally, I think a majority of the things you suggested are spot on - they really don't need to be overly complex. I'm not sure a lesser favour would really matter, because if you're going to include favours, you may as well include them entirely. I understand the thought behind it, but I don't think a lesser favour would really solve it so much as become just a useless function.
  • SakrSakr
    So lets say the covenants are:
    warriors and monks
    mages and guardians

    where would that leave bards if the above two groups are set?
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  • EstarraEstarra
    Guild advance is a good idea.

    I think a referendum is important insofar that it gives everyone a chance to discuss and places a time period for thoughtful consideration rather than just jumping on the covenant bandwagon on a whim. (Not that you personally wouldn't thoughtfully discuss with the guild beforehand but you never know what some guild leaders may do in the future.)
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  • EstarraEstarra
    edited December 2012
    Sakr said:
    So lets say the covenants are:
    warriors and monks
    mages and guardians

    where would that leave bards if the above two groups are set?
    Well, it would be up to guilds to choose to whom to covenant. Maybe the warrior guild wants to stand on their own and the bards and monks want to enter a covenant.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.

    I don't think it's as linear as that. I'd pair SDs with Harbingers before anyone else, maybe Ebonguard (If I wasn't plotting Xenthos's death IC). Likewise, I can see Illuminati and Minstrels getting along swell, and Cantors with Celestians. I think the odd man out will kind of depend on the org.

     

    Question, would the GTs be combined into one GT under a new name? Like "Servants of Shadow" or some such, and GTS remain guild specific? Or would they remain seperate with different commands to access each?

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  • AstraeaAstraea
    I think Sakr brings up a good point of the Odd Man Out potential. The fifth, slowest, guild gets sort of shafted.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Estarra said:
    Guild advance is a good idea.

    I think a referendum is important insofar that it gives everyone a chance to discuss and places a time period for thoughtful consideration rather than just jumping on the covenant bandwagon on a whim. (Not that you personally wouldn't thoughtfully discuss with the guild beforehand but you never know what some guild leaders may do in the future.)
    Ah, good point. That does make sense.
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  • EstarraEstarra
    Celina said:

    Question, would the GTs be combined into one GT under a new name? Like "Servants of Shadow" or some such, and GTS remain guild specific? Or would they remain seperate with different commands to access each?

    It'd be GT still. What the channels are called wouldn't change if you talk on GT. A harbinger would see you as talking on the Shadowdancer channel (for example).
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  • AstraeaAstraea
    Hmmm...that might be potentially awkward, especially considering GTELLS, we'd see half of conversations.

  • SakrSakr
    edited December 2012
    But lets say all 5 of them want to form a covenant. There would be an odd one out.

    If the covenant limit could be 2 other guilds, then that would solve that problem.
    or
    If the chancellor's office can be used between the guilds as the extra set of people up till guild rank 5 or so. You would still be able to speak to them in guild tells, but not gts... I don't know, but leaving the option out for one guild out feels wrong.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.

    GT ah, okay. Yeah, that's fine. I didn't process that you could both hear each others GTs, so you could converse while on different channels.

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  • AstraeaAstraea
    I really do like the covenant idea, but it's tough trying to think of a fifth-guild work-around. I feel like a covenant -should- be between only two guilds, but what to do with that fifth one...hmmm..
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Release a sixt...
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  • EstarraEstarra
    Maybe we need a sixth guild!

    Before we start jumping to wanting covenants with more than two guilds, let's start small and see how it goes. (I'm really not sure why every guild would want to covenant. There's no real benefit unless you have a small population and you somewhat dilute your sovereignty and rp.)
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  • OrtiOrti

    Xenthos said:
    Release a sixt...
    Go Go Ranger Archetype!

  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Are things bad enough between all five guilds in an org that all five would want to be in covenants?
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • PhudmogPhudmog
    Like the idea, thanks to the admin for listening to the playerbase on this one!  A few things to think about (maybe not for implementing right away, but possibly "wait and see"):
    • sharing guild scrolls.  How is a member of guild A in a covenant with guild B supposed to know what is required by guild B for advancement or favouring, unless they can see one another's GHELP's?  Clans seem like a cumbersome solution to this.
    • sharing guild logs and newsgroups.  Similar argument to above.
    • appointments. Wasn't part of the original problem that certain guilds were so underpopulated that they were having a difficult time appointing people to undersecretary/security?  Would this be a power that the bonded guild leaders would have (i.e. guild A leader appointing undersecretaries in guild B)?
    • enemyships. Right now, every guild has their own list of enemies. Would the covenants have their own enemy lists?  Would they be combined?  Again, can leader of guild A mark a person an enemy to guild B?
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Oh, I forgot to actually add an opinion.

    I think the Covenant idea is right now. Yeah, guild advance is also a good option, add that. But I see no reason for two covenanted guilds to share logs, newsgroups, or especially appointments. The point of Covenats is not for one guild to takeover another one, but that they share resources. If Guild A doesn't have enough Secretaries, it's more than likely it's not because there's no GA to appoint Undersecs or GM to appoint Secs--it's because there aren't any people to appoint to the positions. Therefore, it covenants with Guild B, which has enough Secs, and the covenant Secs function nominally as Secs for all.

    Also, I see the point of Covenants to be more morale boosters--Guild A, which is thriving, covenants with Guild B, which is mostly empty, in order to help it get back on its feet, make its newcomers feel like they aren't abandoned, and create a better atmosphere for everybody.

    My own minor concern is that Covenants will become permanent "super guilds". We know the requirements to form a Covenant, but what about to break one? I think it should be significantly easier to break a covenant than to form one so that when the leaders of one of the covenanted guilds thinks they will be okay on their own, they can simply decide that.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • EstarraEstarra
    I think to break a covenant needs 3 guild leaders in one of the guilds to agree to break it.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.

    I would just like to note a couple of things...

     

    1) I don't think every guild will want to form a covenant. I can see many reasons why some would prefer to be on their own and self standing. With that, I don't think it'll be "odd man out" in every org.

     

    2) I think if two guilds are serious enough to form a covenant, they will be quite able to establish limitations and rules between one another, and as they are in the same org (rather then org alliances), it would be very odd to see them purposefully pushing and overstepping boundaries. That being said, I don't see any reason to have leaders setting fines, enemy statues, or appointments across guilds. That would be awkward.

     

    3) Unofficial things like this already exist. There's the Crowned Night covenant between the Nightshades and Shee-Slaugh. It actually drives some really interesting interaction, especially for the Nightshades who are a touch less populated than the Shee Slaugh atm. This really has the potential to foster some unique relationships between sub groups.

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  • AstraeaAstraea
    See now, I think Covenants should more or less be sacred, ever-lasting bonds, or at least very serious marriages between guilds. Not something temporary. Then again, there's room for both of these things, I imagine. 
  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    If it's left open enough, there's definitely room for both. For example, I can see the Serenguard and Shofangi entering something like a Serenwilde Martial Covenant, simply as a way for the two to work more closely together. But I can also see the Templars and Illluminati entering something like the Gaudiguch Mystical Covenant and be permanently bonded with a shared RP and mythos.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • OrtiOrti

    Astraea said:
    See now, I think Covenants should more or less be sacred, ever-lasting bonds, or at least very serious marriages between guilds. Not something temporary. Then again, there's room for both of these things, I imagine. 
    There is no reason for the Covenants not to be sacred.

    Let's assume that the Paladins want to form a covenant because they lack players. There's Tahtetso, Cantors, Celestines and Aquamancers.

    While the Aquamancers are the most populated and will probably help more the Paladins, I don't see them not going for the Celestines due to such a strong bond via mechanics and RP that exists between the Paladin and Celestine ideology.

    At least more than to the Aquamancers

  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.

    I think the basic idea Estarra has lined out really leaves it open to the players to define how deep and important the Covenant will be. Maybe further down the line, they can add levels of bonds between two guilds, but for now I think allowing it to be open ended for the players themselves to RP and work out the depth of their Covenant is exactly what we need.

     

    Obviously Astraea and I have our ideas and personal motivations (and I'm sure we'll be squealing like school girls at eachother later tonight), but I think some people will take a pragmatic approach to covenants and use them for population benefits rather than ritualic bonding. Allowing room for both is fine by me.

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  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    We need more things that are mechanically open for a variety of RP anyway, and this sounds like a great way to do that.
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    edited December 2012
    Everiine said:
    If it's left open enough, there's definitely room for both. For example, I can see the Serenguard and Shofangi entering something like a Serenwilde Martial Covenant, simply as a way for the two to work more closely together. But I can also see the Templars and Illluminati entering something like the Gaudiguch Mystical Covenant and be permanently bonded with a shared RP and mythos.
    The Serenguard has always been a bit of an 'outsider' sort of guild though. I'm not sure I like the idea of sharing news, guild talks etc. If there were a separate channel maybe it would be palatable, but either way it's an opt in/opt out sort of system and could be great for the guilds wanting to do it.
  • SsalissSsaliss
    Regarding powers: I mostly agree that each guild should keep their powers separate; there's no need for the GA of guild A to check on the members in guild B, for instance, or for them to meddle with diplomacy or whatnot. The only power that I could see being shared is Guild Rescue, since it's a very situational power; if a guildmember needs rescuing, they need it now, not in five minutes or a couple of hours. Giving the power to both GCs to rescue eachother's members would help alleviate that problem for smaller guilds (not that a lot of rescuings are being done at the moment; I can't remember the last time I heard of someone being rescued, in fact).
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  • EveriineEveriine Wise Old Swordsbird / Brontaur Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Rivius said:
    Everiine said:
    If it's left open enough, there's definitely room for both. For example, I can see the Serenguard and Shofangi entering something like a Serenwilde Martial Covenant, simply as a way for the two to work more closely together. But I can also see the Templars and Illluminati entering something like the Gaudiguch Mystical Covenant and be permanently bonded with a shared RP and mythos.
    The Serenguard has always been a bit of an 'outsider' sort of guild though. I'm not sure I like the idea of sharing news, guild talks etc. If there were a separate channel maybe it would be palatable, but either way it's an opt in/opt out sort of system and could be great for the guilds wanting to do it.
    Heh, I wasn't saying it -should- happen, I was just giving an example. Though if this comes out, discussion would be interesting!
    Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"

    Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.

    Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
  • AstraeaAstraea
    So I would say things to share:

    GT, GNT
    News (Reading, but not posting)
    Logs
    Favours
    Guild Rescue for GC's

    I would say, that maybe, these things can be toggled though, or invested like clan privs to create something more agreeable to the guilds involved. 
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