Gnomes and poison resist

Xenthos

Estarra asked me to make a forum post on this subject, in regards to the new races.

One of the things that puzzles me is the inclusion of poison resist on gnomes, given that there is a quest to drug the gnomes with a concoction made of various poisonous materials on Mucklemarsh.  Once the gnome is drugged, it is dragged through aetherspace and then injected with slivven-eggs through their stomach, which is... one of the most creepily disturbing quests in the game.  However, given this precedent, it seems somewhat awkward to have them be poison resistant.

Is there anything that would make more sense?  I think it would be neat if gnomes actually had a benefit to Tinkering instead (though a gnome bard would be weird, gnomes as Tinkerers only makes sense).  Would it make sense for gnomes to have access to the Tinkering ability (obviously only while in gnome form, and perhaps with additional restrictions to make it fair for bards) instead of a poison resist?  Is there something else that you can think of that would be a decent alternative and make sense thematically for the race?

Edit: It could even be access to just a couple of the Tinkering skills, but with no access to the overall skillset (so they can't do cubes, sigils, or any of the more magicky things).

Portius

Gnomes could get a spec race for when they take tinkering that gives them enough charisma to be good bards. Something along the lines of brewmeister dwarves.

Xenthos

Portius said:

Gnomes could get a spec race for when they take tinkering that gives them enough charisma to be good bards. Something along the lines of brewmeister dwarves.

That would also be a pretty cool option; they have lots of intelligence, they would need something charisma-wise though.

Portius

Maybe make them squishy damage types, to be sort of an inverted brewmeister? Cut constitution down a little and boost charisma, so they can keep the intelligence which I feel is kind of important to gnomish themes.

I have no idea what kind of numbers are balanced/relevant here, but I think it's thematically sound at least.

EDIT: Further random selection of thoughts because I love gnomish type themes.

Give them a spec race for being any sort of chem. All of the chem skills fit with the techy theme to some extent. I don't know what stats are really relevant here. For all I know that great intelligence score might more or less make them a chem race anyway. I'm speaking purely thematically here. That might give you a chance to add a wood spec race to finks (is that fluff justifiable? I know next to nothing about finks) if you wanted to keep them roughly on par with each other in terms of options.

Smaller scale thing to fit the theme, give them faster balance/eq recovery when crafting items/inscribing cards/other such things. More generally useful, although it's purely a convenience thing without balance repercussions.

Synkarin

Assuming you did something similiar to dwarves, what you're doing it switching one strong stat for one weaker. In dwarves its 5 Str -> Cha, making it 11Str, 17 Cha for a brewmeister (including titan + 1 and +1 cha from demigod power, no point in getting str)

Gnomes would have to be different, 21 int + even 16 Cha would be crazy base levels (we're talking 23-24 Int, 20ish Cha after buffs available, Cha buffs more readily available for bards). You'd probably want to add some crazy weaknesses, or take from Int AND Dex, but it'd still be stupid good stats probably.

I think it's a good idea RPly, just want the mechanics to be reasonable. I know I'd pick gnome in a heartbeat if I was getting huge Int/Cha stats.

Xenthos

Whatever the idea is, it absolutely has to be reasonable; I think that is why she suggested bringing it to the forums for discussion.

Maligorn

I am baffled by finks' high dexterity, as I personally pictured them as hulking brutes. Although, ones that have the knowhow to reconstruct an aethership maybe? My lore is spotty.

They look like manakill susceptible monks/warriors to me!

EDIT: Is aetherwill based on intelligence?

Portius

Yeah, I absolutely can't comment on balance concerns here. I like the idea of them as a counterpart to dwarves for because of the Agnomenon/Clangorum link, but I have no idea if there's a way to make it balanced.

Maligorn

Also, I think it's awesome that they're here.

Vivet

Clearly, we should replace the poison resist with this:

STATUETTE SUBTERFUGE

If you are in an outdoor location, you may be STILL AS A STATUE and, so long as you perform no other action, be so convincingly inanimate as to be out-of-phase, for all intents and purposes. Drops on your next action.

(Basically, all gnomes get WEAVE NATURE.)

Estarra

BTW, in case it wasn't clear, you cannot become a fink or gnome until you use the mushroom artifact, even through the cameo.

Once you eat the mushroom, you become a fink (or gnome) through the cameo. If you are a fink (or gnome) decide to reincarnate to an elfen or other race, you will no longer be a fink (or gnome). However, you could use a dagger or other method to reincarnate back into a fink (or gnome) if you change your mind again.

Vivet

EDIT: Is aetherwill based on intelligence?

Yes.

Maligorn

So that nice turret equilibrium is hamstrung by terrible aetherwill. Trade some of that dex in for int! We all know finks are cunning buggers.

Portius

Or just give them a healthy racial bonus to aetherwill, if you want to keep them low int!

Vivet

Estarra said:

BTW, in case it wasn't clear, you cannot become a fink or gnome until you use the mushroom artifact, even through the cameo.

Once you eat the mushroom, you become a fink (or gnome) through the cameo. If you are a fink (or gnome) decide to reincarnate to an elfen or other race, you will no longer be a fink (or gnome). However, you could use a dagger or other method to reincarnate back into a fink (or gnome) if you change your mind again.

This might seem silly, but I'm vaguely paranoid I might eventually forget I bought/ate mushrooms and will have no way of checking/confirming. Could there be any way to mark your changeling cameo so that it is obvious? Something like an additional line that reads, "The visage of a fink intermittently appears upon the cameo". Or even just something in status/score somewhere.

Ieptix

Vivet said:

Estarra said:

BTW, in case it wasn't clear, you cannot become a fink or gnome until you use the mushroom artifact, even through the cameo.

Once you eat the mushroom, you become a fink (or gnome) through the cameo. If you are a fink (or gnome) decide to reincarnate to an elfen or other race, you will no longer be a fink (or gnome). However, you could use a dagger or other method to reincarnate back into a fink (or gnome) if you change your mind again.

This might seem silly, but I'm vaguely paranoid I might eventually forget I bought/ate mushrooms and will have no way of checking/confirming. Could there be any way to mark your changeling cameo so that it is obvious? Something like an additional line that reads, "The visage of a fink intermittently appears upon the cameo". Or even just something in status/score somewhere.

I'll get something added tomorrow.

Maligorn

pompoms for WEAVE CHANGESELF FINK and WEAVE CHANGESELF GNOME!

Lerad

Thematically, I'd say give gnomes empath aetherwill bonus as well. These are 500cr races, let's not give them things that'll have an effect on mainstream trades or make them even more attractive as a PvP race than they already are. Drop the poison resist if you don't want it to be there, give them empath aetherwill and presto, you have all the most important aethership functions covered between the two new races, and no one will feel obliged to shell out 500cr for a new bard spec race or access to a tradeskill outside of their class.

Daraius

I second the motion to make gnomes and finks aetherhunting powerhouses, but totally average in all other areas.

Arcanis

Cant they speak gnomish and finkish? >>

Tacita

As they currently stand I don't see them (as a person who already has a cameo) being worth the credits. 

I'd have to really, really, really want to be able to be a gnome/fink to view 500cr (bearing in mind how many races a base cameo gives you) as a reasonable investment. I appreciate that they're meant to be rare but it just feels like so much more on top of the large amount of credits I already spent to have access to all races.

If gnomes were changed to have a tinkering-related spec like dwarves I might consider just getting gnome, but I'm not sure bards really need another racial spec now that all of the org-based races have bard specs, and even then it'd still be pretty pricey.

ETA: Which all makes me very sad because part of me would really like to be able to be a gnome purely to annoy Xenthos.

Karlach

They could do with a touch of rebalance, while they both look like races designed with the overhaul in mind (removal of wp/end, H/M/E becoming class based not stat based) they fill such a niche role that is not regular gameplay, that you aren't likely to see much use for them. Finks aren't a viable alternative to the AMR, and certainly aren't any better than weapon spec races, and while Gnomes have amazing intellect for straight up damage, there's so much value in the EQ bonus of Wump/Merian that they're a sidegrade at best.


If there's going to be a huge increase in the need for aetherships and aetherspace exploration (oh god yes please do this) then great. Because all Fink gunner crews would be ridiculous in aetherhunts/combat, and gnome pilots would have an edge. But without that appeal they're still rather limited in value.

Arcanis

Karlach said:

If there's going to be a huge increase in the need for aetherships and aetherspace exploration (oh god yes please do this) then great. Because all Fink gunner crews would be ridiculous in aetherhunts/combat, and gnome pilots would have an edge. But without that appeal they're still rather limited in value.

I have in the past considered this option in Lusternia several times, however I dont feel this idea would ever truly blossom until Aethercraft in general is made more user friendly. For starters, I personally find that the need of at least 4-5 people just to use a ship to full capacity to be a real downer and stunts others from getting a real feel for it. It is no secret the playerbase has dwindled with time, so the requirement of the players, not only having the skill, but willing to go out to aetherspace is pretty small.

I always prefer the concept presented in Achaea wherein a player would have his own sea ship and can hire a crew of NPCs to fill the tasks needed. Of course extra mechanics were introduced for interaction with the crew.

Anywho im probably derailing, so back to gnomes and finks.

Haezon

Why not change up the bonuses so that gnomes have a bonus for influencing gnomes and finks have a bonus for influencing finks?

I know other races don't have race bonuses for influencing their own race, but with gnomes and finks, you can only find them in a few rare places (Mucklemarsh, Bottledowns, Facility, Newton) and they're usually isolated.

You could also give a downside to influencing the respective race which oppose your one. (In both cases, probably massive ones like level 5 equivalent against other gnomes/finks)

Karlach

Because more niche isn't going to make a race more appealing.

My biggest dislike of this (and don't get me wrong, I do not dislike this as a whole, infact I'm very liking of it) is that it's simply adding more races that simply aren't in the MR club, and thus aren't going to see much use. The game needs to make what races exist already more viable, rather than add more on top that expand the issue.

Llandros

[Sorry, I'm late to this discussion]

I think having them spec to archetype would be really nice. Kinda like how humans change their stats. 500 credits is a hefty sum so it's quite the investment.

It would round them out a little and increase their mass appeal. Something within reason like have gnomes work better with mages, guardians and bards and fink with warriors and monks. 

I Would love to be a gnome bard and would totally shell out the credits but my current brewmeister dwarf makes a gnomish bard look laughable. And not in the way gnomes should be laughable (

I've wanted gnomes to be playable races for so long but paying 500 credits to downgrade my combat stats like that is a hard sell.