1) centralize lusternia's afflictions and defenses into a database for future projects. This is behind the scenes and the benefits harder to explain. 2) severely reduce the affliction bloat that has become a notable problem both for balancing and cost/complexity of entry. 3) readjust the buff scaling and set a cap for the buff system to eliminate outlying balance offenders and make future balance concerns easier to address. Hopefully we will ultimately raise the floor and lower the ceiling mechanics wise so that learning curve isn't so harsh and that player skill will be more rewarding, rather than an arms race of who has the most buffs. Among other things but that is the cliff notes version from the backseat as I drive to the beach.
In the end, my great hope is that combat would be much more accessible to new players, that combat is fun and not a huge burden of entry because of the need to collect and keep stocked up on dozens of herbs, potions, salves, etc., etc. just to be able to compete, and that combat basics are easier to understand and get involved in. While I also hope combat will be simpler, I certainly don't want to lose all complexity that would lend itself to dynamic tactics. Because of the huge number of afflictions and cures (and their costs), new players now just throw their hands up in frustration rather than jumping into what I think could be one of the most fun aspects of the game for many of them.
Most novices we've had were able to afford cures and equipment within a few days of gaining their bearings. That's always been a drop in the bucket. The high cost of entry of combat has always been in lessons and artifacts. A system has also been an issue to obtain since there's no freely available one right now, but that's more the community's fault than the game itself.
I'm going I have to disagree with you here. Artifacts are not a prerequisite for getting involved in combat and we have some very notable PKers that have demonstrated this over the years. Artifacts are something I am actually extremely comfortable with, especially in comparison to Achaea and the others. Estarra has done a fantastic job at allowing artifacts to provide noticeable perks but not fubdamentally changing or breaking PK. The complexity often comes from the volume of knowledge one must absorb to just be competitive. Affording curatives is a very different animal than understanding the kill methods and afflictions. Lusternia, lessons wise, is no more costly than other IREs (and IRE as a whole has made a concerted effort to address this..but it's still a business).
I don't think that's true at all. Artifacts make an enormous difference and it surprises me every time someone on these forums say they don't. Lessons as well. For instance, some of the younger members of Serenwilde might challenge me to a spar, and sometimes without even trying I end up killing them because of things like 1) poor robes against my artifacts 2) poor resilience against my poisons and damage 3) poor combat, affecting stances and parry 4) poor shield stats because of a lack of a shield rune. That's just an example. I can confidently build wounds on just about any warrior in my guild, but the majority of the people in my guild, including the demigods cannot dent my armour -- that's entirely artifacts. It isn't even skill or experience, I'll admit. Sometimes I just take shortcuts but only because my artifacts afford me that option. I'm sure there's countless other situations for other classes, but my point is, any new players to the game have to deal with a huge gap between their own skills and investment and those of the people they're unfortunate to be up against and that hikes up the cost of entry for combat for them whether you believe it does or not. When you're Joe the newbiekins and are dying to effortless beheads all the time, you'd have a hard time believing you don't need splendours or a shield rune to last more than a few seconds.
I think it's been a tired argument that warrior artifacts are too expensive and make too much of a difference, that armour tiers are too varied in effectiveness and that resilience should have been rolled into another skill.
IRE is a business, yes and they may have made efforts to give more free lessons and reduce costs...but that's still exactly where most people get hung up on combat...artifacts and lessons. That is the limiting factor. Always has been.
As for learning things...there's not much learning most people have to do. Often learning your own class is enough for most purposes, unless you're a warrior or really trying to fight at a higher level. Keep in mind, lusternia has 28 guilds, each with a number of skill choice combinations...I'm not sure how you're going to keep them all unique and keep a dynamic flow of combat while attempting to simplify everything as drastically as is being proposed.
Artifacts and lessons seem to be taken for granted in the top tier nowadays. Even now, I'm not tritrans -- basically I'm just riding on the supreme utility of Aerochemantics. I have minimal lessons in Combat, Discernment and Discipline and I pay for it often. Agh, I could've shieldstunned him there, ugh, why can't I read anyone's vitals, WHAT IS FOCUS MIND (912 lessons into Discernment guys). Trans Resilience? Still trying to trans my guild skills here love!
Not to mention all the 300 dingbat each bubblixes, magic runes, RoAs, shield runes, trans tailoring needed for splendours...I could go on and on.
EDIT: The only reason I don't complain so much about it is because I know I could get some nice credits writing for Hallifax library or Bardics -- I'm just too lazy/busy with IRL!
Strangely you gave several examples that had everything to do with others not maximizing themselves and nothing to do with artifacts! An artifact can be a game changer against those wit poor robe stats. I suspect reducing artifacts to not heavily impact those that don't maximize the basics will result in riots, however.
I'd let them riot. I think the game would be better off if everyone had similar-ish robe stats, all warriors had the same wounding potential and that artifacts only did a very minimum amount. It saddens my heart every single time I have to tell a young Serenguard that the reason they can't wound me is because they don't have wounding runes or the reason they died so fast is because they could not stance or parry anything I was throwing at them. It hurts, because even though I love telling people that if they practice more they can get much better, the truth is they probably won't improve against me until they at least trans some of those extra skills and buy some wounders. At that point, the cost for them to be effective at combat is really just credits and lessons, not because they didn't learn the complexities of affliction curing.
I'll say again though, anyone with 'Serenguard' in their title passed the first tier test at GR1, which required you to buy every single cure and at least know how to get by with some basic curing. Not everyone with that title has gotten into combat, and I've probably made you tired explaining why I think that is.
Is one of the purposes of moving afflictions and defences to a database so that we can keep some defences from login to login? That would be great
As someone who has tons of artifacts, I will say that "maintaining my stuff", is certainly a big factor in keeping me out of combat as a casual player. Spending more time getting stuff to be in combat than actually being in combat, is a turn off. But this goes beyond just curatives. It includes setting up my defenses, getting the right blessings, maximizing my buffs and trying to maintain divine favors.
System complexity is another issue. I look forward to the day I can play on the web client in combat
Question about the theorized final list of in combat cures.
Strangely you gave several examples that had everything to do with others not maximizing themselves and nothing to do with artifacts! An artifact can be a game changer against those wit poor robe stats. I suspect reducing artifacts to not heavily impact those that don't maximize the basics will result in riots, however.
The shield rune, in particular, is a huge difference (especially with the great shield stat nerf making them have even less stats than they do regularly). It is not possible to forge anything close to a 52/52 for a caster, and the shield rune doesn't have reduced stats, meaning that it is a very significant game-changer when facing warriors (and partially monks, but not quite as much).
In this case, the issue is exacerbated because great shields were nerfed, but the shield rune was not, widening the gap between the two.
No, Silvanus. Nowhere have we stated that the cost of curatives is the hurdle to combat. We are not reassessing the entire curing process because of gold prices (I suspect you know that at this point). I believe we've explained our reasoning for doing so repeatedly. Complexity and cost may be related in same cases, but they are not the same thing. I'm really not at liberty to discuss changes to artifacts. I will say that they are not within the purview of overhaul.
Don't think fullplate/helm/splendours can be artied.
Estarra's passing mention about the large number of cures is aimed at the intimidation it represents to someone who wants to learn combat, not buy the cures. The large number of cures don't actually add much complexity to the combat scene, it just seems to add complexity, therefore making newbies think combat is very complex (which it is, but not for the reasons they think it is). Simplifying the first-impression newbies get is a good step forward - we're basically moving from 10+ different curatives split over 4 cure balances to 4 curatives split over 4 cure balances... and if we add priority choosing (via focus), then there actually isn't any change in the complexity of the cures.
Newbies, however, will no longer get an introduction to combat that goes something like: You need 7 different herbs, all of which are on this thing called "herb balance", oh, except for that one exception which is used for pipe smoking, which is on "smoke balance", and then you need around 6 different potions, all of which are on potion balance, oh, except for health, mana, bromides, which is on their own balance, and you also need around 4 different salves, all of which are stored the same way potions are, but used with a different command and on something we call "salve balance"...
Also, if I understood it correctly, no more Green/Gedulah that they have to have (which, by themselves, cost (IIRC) 350-700 lessons). Hopefully the focuses won't be critical to combat either, so new people can be (at least partially) expected to survive a little while in a 1v1 when these changes all go in.
Also, I just noticed something that might be fairly important. (Or I might be missing something fairly important.)
The "clump of soothing steam" cure item can only be targetted with the noun "clump"? If so, this should be changed, because clump is used for raw tea leaves in the rift. Trying to outr clump will result in trying to get the tea leaves instead of the cure.
If it can be targetted by other nouns, the item should be renamed. As far as I can see, the only thing that indicates it is the word "clump":
You are holding: "clump131125" a group of 18 clumps "clump135416" a clump of soothing steam
You store 17 clump in the rift, bringing the total to 17.
A clump of soothing steam rests of the ground here. You see a single exit leading north (open door).
Ah, right, soothingsteam. Didn't try that one. It's a little long, but well, at least there's a way to get at it without having to go through raw, green, black and oolong tea leaves.
I think keeping the current cures we had and just removing lots of redundant/useless afflictions from the scene, and removing purgs + focus body/focus spirit would have been just fine (amongst some other class changes).
Server side curing would have been very helpful getting people into the combat scene too.
Nobody likes to re-create systems. It's a process which requires work.
Nobody wants to pay credits for systems anymore either.
The overhaul is going to make all current systems nearly useless. Then people will need to somehow find the credits to purchase new systems.
Need to learn how to use these new systems too.
There is also no guarantee that systems will even be made for public use. It's all on the players.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this but this overhaul just seems like it's going to put a lot more work back on some of us older folks who still like to play occasionally but don't have the knowledge, skill or time/effort to try to make new systems just so we can play a game.
Having to invest hours and days of work just to play a game is not fun.
The most common public system, m&m, will almost undoubtedly be reworked for the overhaul, with no extra charge for current users.
That isn't to say I don't agree with some of your other points, but - just like the argument that new players 'need to learn every other classes afflictions'- the idea that players will need to expend time writing systems will be no more true than it already is. The big change to the average pkers time will be re-learning offense, by and large their defense is and always has been taken care of automatically.
The most common public system, m&m, will almost undoubtedly be reworked for the overhaul, with no extra charge for current users.
That isn't to say I don't agree with some of your other points, but - just like the argument that new players 'need to learn every other classes afflictions'- the idea that players will need to expend time writing systems will be no more true than it already is. The big change to the average pkers time will be re-learning offense, by and large their defense is and always has been taken care of automatically.
How are you so certain? Have you heard something from Vadi that the rest of us have not? I've been trying to get some response from him in regards to swapping low/high magic in the settings, i.e. to use summer/green instead of tipheret/gedulah when necessary (A message I sent well over 2 weeks ago) and have received no response as yet.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I tend to not make it a point to check Vadi's website for updates unless there's something that might be going wrong/expecting an update to be released/etc. That said, eh... with the way things are going with him, I would've expected that he wouldn't bother further.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
While I understand the concerns (I really do), we can't halt progress for fear of immediate inconveniences. It doesn't mean they aren't valid, they absolutely are. It just means we can't allow the transition period to scare us off from doing new things. Of all the players, the existing PKers usually have the easiest time transitioning to new mechanics. I think we will be just fine.
Does moving afflictions to the database allow for server side curing like that which exists in the arena? (or atleast the help file claims exists in the arena)
I want to say possibly maybe perhaps down the line eventually somtime. I honestly can't speak on that with any degree of certainty. I'm here for the Overhaul and the PK system. The great big plans of the future are Estarra's domain.
I want to say possibly maybe perhaps down the line eventually somtime. I honestly can't speak on that with any degree of certainty. I'm here for the Overhaul and the PK system. The great big plans of the future are Estarra's domain.
I think it'd be spiffy.
It was a technical question not a planing question
Does moving afflictions to the database allow for server side curing like that which exists in the arena? (or atleast the help file claims exists in the arena)
Comments
Not to mention all the 300 dingbat each bubblixes, magic runes, RoAs, shield runes, trans tailoring needed for splendours...I could go on and on.
EDIT: The only reason I don't complain so much about it is because I know I could get some nice credits writing for Hallifax library or Bardics -- I'm just too lazy/busy with IRL!
Is this overhaul of the afflictions being done because people think that's what makes the cost too high to get into combat?
Items made through trade items are not the problem.
In this case, the issue is exacerbated because great shields were nerfed, but the shield rune was not, widening the gap between the two.
Estarra's passing mention about the large number of cures is aimed at the intimidation it represents to someone who wants to learn combat, not buy the cures. The large number of cures don't actually add much complexity to the combat scene, it just seems to add complexity, therefore making newbies think combat is very complex (which it is, but not for the reasons they think it is). Simplifying the first-impression newbies get is a good step forward - we're basically moving from 10+ different curatives split over 4 cure balances to 4 curatives split over 4 cure balances... and if we add priority choosing (via focus), then there actually isn't any change in the complexity of the cures.
Newbies, however, will no longer get an introduction to combat that goes something like: You need 7 different herbs, all of which are on this thing called "herb balance", oh, except for that one exception which is used for pipe smoking, which is on "smoke balance", and then you need around 6 different potions, all of which are on potion balance, oh, except for health, mana, bromides, which is on their own balance, and you also need around 4 different salves, all of which are stored the same way potions are, but used with a different command and on something we call "salve balance"...
The "clump of soothing steam" cure item can only be targetted with the noun "clump"? If so, this should be changed, because clump is used for raw tea leaves in the rift. Trying to outr clump will result in trying to get the tea leaves instead of the cure.
If it can be targetted by other nouns, the item should be renamed. As far as I can see, the only thing that indicates it is the word "clump":
You are holding:
"clump131125" a group of 18 clumps
"clump135416" a clump of soothing steam
You store 17 clump in the rift, bringing the total to 17.
A clump of soothing steam rests of the ground here.
You see a single exit leading north (open door).
I see no "steam" to take.
I see no "sooth" to take.
I see no "soothing" to take.
You pick up a clump of soothing steam.
EDIT: Although yes, "soothing" would be nice to get added.
I think keeping the current cures we had and just removing lots of redundant/useless afflictions from the scene, and removing purgs + focus body/focus spirit would have been just fine (amongst some other class changes).
Server side curing would have been very helpful getting people into the combat scene too.
Nobody likes to re-create systems. It's a process which requires work.
Nobody wants to pay credits for systems anymore either.
The overhaul is going to make all current systems nearly useless. Then people will need to somehow find the credits to purchase new systems.
Need to learn how to use these new systems too.
There is also no guarantee that systems will even be made for public use. It's all on the players.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this but this overhaul just seems like it's going to put a lot more work back on some of us older folks who still like to play occasionally but don't have the knowledge, skill or time/effort to try to make new systems just so we can play a game.
Having to invest hours and days of work just to play a game is not fun.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
It's right there on the front page!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I want to say possibly maybe perhaps down the line eventually somtime. I honestly can't speak on that with any degree of certainty. I'm here for the Overhaul and the PK system. The great big plans of the future are Estarra's domain.
I think it'd be spiffy.