I was having an in-depth discussion about this stuff earlier while at work, actually, once I saw Saz's post and talked around a bit. A few thoughts, below:
Actually, let me preface this by saying that Rideta is not my first character. I have, in effect, been around the block. While I am coming back from a hiatus of a number of years, you'd be surprised at how much hasn't really changed. My, 'Main,' roughly a decade ago was actually a Glom. I don't know who remembers (Xenthos definitely remembers) what being in Glom was like at the time, but outside of the intriguing roleplay, it sucked. It sucked a lot. Even when the major org stompings slowed, which took a while, we still had to deal with Narsrim. Narsrim was an excellent combatant and knew every way to mechanically mess about in Etherglom and come out successfully. Constantly. Skill and knowledge combined to make this guy the single biggest pain in our butts for an incredibly long time. He had no qualms about being that guy and Seren had no qualms about letting it happen.
That's not a defense and it has nothing to do with why Seren is getting raided now. I'm mentioning this just to say that I lived in the era of Narsrim, and I know the feeling of constant raids in that respect. I've encountered similar on other characters, in other orgs, during the entire time I played but I have this visceral recollection of that time in Glomdoring most of all. It's wearisome. I empathize as a player. I do.
Now here come the more contentious lines of thinking. I'm treating people as adults here, so if this sounds a little crass or even just plain cranky, I trust you'll deal with it just fine. It's imperative for you to realize that these opinions are formed from many years of this silliness and utterly predicated on point 'D.' If you skip over the rest, at least read that last part and the finale.
A) Everyone has a turn in the barrel
This rotation is eternal
C) The administrative route pursued first
D) Roleplay
A & B
Yes, yes, everyone gets stomped for whatever reason, everyone is on top for a while, everyone has it the ABSOLUTE WORST . We all know this argument, and for better or for worse, it's true. Balancing changes, orgs change, players swap out, the year does strange things to the highs and lows of numbers in every org. This is going to be an ongoing thing that affects an org or three for as long as this game is online. I hope that we all understand this. Conflict is the singular source of movement in this game, and it's pretty much always going to be that way. We're in a tiny area with six massive organizations that (Not)secretly can't stand eachother.
"He started it, she started it, this is vengeance for blah, well remember when we had blah blah? You guys did blah so suck it up."
Moving into this, every org has these lofty memories that somehow when They were the ones on top by golly it just wasn't this bad for OUR enemy org, you guys. We had standards. We never raided at three in the morning every single morning farming Nil like it's a bashing zone because nobody could defend. We never aggressively rocked out vital quest zones on prime to keep an org from completing a quest that mechanically granted no advantages whatsoever. We never set fire to that commune and chopped trees relentlessly for weeks. We know we didn't go out of our way to grief a group of people because we were at war and we could. We hung out and fight large groups and they never do. "Blah, blah, blah."
That's all garbage and every org does it. Then they exaggerate. The only questions are who's doing it this time and why. The never-ending posturing is just too much at times.
C
Why is it that people immediately leap to administrative actions or changing mechanics or begging a God to intervene? While we should come together as a community to point out things that legitimately bring excess venom or duress into the game, the notion that you are 'losing,' is not a reason to change the entire world around. (Clarification: Not saying that's what this event is, just something I've noticed that tends to follow along similar lines.) It personally boggles the mind that people don't seek the natural, RP solution to some events. I realize that the character you've created is a lense that you must interact with the world at large through, but I swear there's an outlet to every circumstance. Suppose your hardcore warrior who feels incredibly obligated to defend all assaults... suffers from a tragic malady that renders him unable to? Suppose your dummy character that is becoming too obnoxious for you to deal with... stumbled upon some domotheon method of mind expansion by pure chance. The options are really out there for you to play the way that you prefer to.
This game is so utterly malleable by the playerbase and yet time and time again I've seen this... I don't know, 'willing helplessness.' Sometimes mechanics are at fault, and I recognize that. I just refuse to believe mechanics are at fault as often as people make them out to be.
D
Following the previous point... ROLEPLAY. The most important part! It's so odd to me, so strange, that people would play this game and refuse to do exactly that. You guys don't think I'm Rideta in real life, do you? I mean, it'd be awesome (Rideta is awesome) but that's not the case. I created her and I get to choose how she deals with everything according to that structure. I get that some focus on combat or trade or what have you as a primary interest, but I promise you that this entire world we run around and start fires in is meant to be a roleplay experience first and foremost.
Why if this is such a huge miserable deal for people (I'm agreeing that it most likely is. Again, I've been on the bad side of this) has the only person who mentioned anything to the Leadership of Magnagora been Breandryn? Avurekhos is furiously smashing a chip on his shoulder while seeking to prove himself to Magnagora and advance in the eyes of the Divine. He's a history of attacking the city and desperately seeks to prove himself and his intentions. It's yielded dividends to his character's influence in Mag and makes complete and utter sense. Of course that person would swear a Tide of Blood upon the Org they felt betrayed them. That's a firm character motivation. Of course Rideta would find that hilarious and do little to stop it. Of course everyone in Mag would feel similarly. Magnagora wants to burn Serenwilde to the ground. Magnagora wants to burn Glomdoring to the ground. Magnagora wants to burn everything to the ground. You're all freakin' parking lots eventually. That's how we see it ICly.
Magnagora is also incredibly up its own ass. We're tied with Glomdoring, IMO. Magnagorans want to be admired and feared publicly. Appearances are nearly more important than reality. When Breandryn came to Rideta, She (I) agreed to have a talk with at least a member of the Winter Court to work out... if not an utter cessation of arms for some time, a reprieve. And then I waited. And waited. And then Breandryn went to Gaudiguch.
What? What happened? There's an IC route to this that should have been pursued first, and it just -wasn't-. Where were the truce talks, an armistice discussion, pleading, or literally any indication that maybe Serenwilde had enough. Where were the angry Serenwilders harassing their own leaders for results? Shouldn't the Seren be more concerned for the Fae and the Forest than with personal pride? Heal for a time, grow, and return stronger. I know I'm injecting my period of roleplay from my once-time in Seren and it may not be applicable, but geez. If you were under attack in real life, wouldn't you ask your leaders 'why?' Wouldn't your leaders find some way to end the conflict? Wouldn't you eventually replace them if not?
The forums isn't where we play this game, people. At least, it's not where -I- play the game. Just saying.
(Magnagora): Thax says, "My truest favour to the soldier that brings me the weave of Neos."
"It's ok if the griefer is on your side, but sucks when he's against you."
Ponder the idea that the person raiding you used to raid others, and you didn't try to stop it. Ponder the idea that other people have likely quit because they kept getting raided constantly.
No offense, Saz, but you aren't a special snowflake. You're somewhat new, and this crap you're going through is absolutely -nothing- compared to the griefing that used to go on. I don't want to see you up and quit, but if conflict is bothering you that much, maybe it's better for your mental health if you jump ship. Serenwilde will find someone easily to replace you, and the game will go on without you. I mean, quitting fixes it. Right? Giving up makes the pain go away.
Also, what Rideta said, but with less sarcasm than my earlier stuff.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
What's amusing is that so few people in Serenwilde forget how Celest and serenwilde used to trade Ryboi/Raeri/Veyrzhul/Glevich alts/Draylor alts back and forth between guilds just because they wanted to use different skillsets to raid Nil/Morgfyre/Fain/Raezon for hours.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Okay -- I know you think you're some kind of scholar on griefing or think you've seen it all, but that doesn't mean you get to belittle or call his experience invalid. Yes, griefing is on a smaller scale than it was a few years ago. No, you shouldn't act condescending towards him for it. Seriously.
New people are going to see your attitude and not want to play. That is just the worst kind of message you can send.
This seems like a seriously good RP opportunity, after a bit of time has passed for a break from the issues caused by it. Especially with the person who actually did the killing (>.> It was Avu, wasn't it). There's some good characters here that can use this stuff to make some pretty darn amazing stories for their RP.
Nobody wants to roleplay with Avurekhos. He's a grade A drama llama and he marches to his own drum beat. It's not even remotely fun -- in fact, I'd even go as far as to say that Avurekhos is the one who has burned the bridges as far as opening lines of communication goes, with the constant hit and run of his former home, epic quest grief, leaving Lisaera as an Avatar and joining Fain, not leaving for any real valid reason etc. This is not someone who wants to be talked to, in my eyes.
edit: oh yeah, can't forget the elder moonhart chopping
I was RPing with Avu in Mag just the other day! He's pretty darn good with it. But I can get the feeling about not wanting to RP with someone whose RP has changed to the polar opposite to the org they chose to leave.
That still leaves lots of RP open in the actual Seren commune though, especially in regards to characters growing and changing, learning how the other communes/cities (Hoboy especially CelestMag) deal with epic quest problems. Or heck, even just approaching the Mag Warlord IG to start talk about "Hey uh, can you reign him in a bit?".
Yes -- I meant as a Serenwilder or anybody who defends Serenwilde on a regular basis, sorry. And you have to realize -- not everyone has time to sublimate the emotion they feel from getting griefed into something positive like character growth or change, as is the case with Saz. It's unfair to people who play the game even semi-casually.
And if we want to talk history, Magnagora (or the Iron Council) has never given a serious effort to "reign in" their rowdier citizens: see Marcella and Arcanis for recent times.
The "it's okay if I do it, but not okay if other people do it" attitude is also chasing people away from the game. This conversation and the hypocrisy displayed by some people is literally causing one of our good players to decide that they just can't handle the stress any more, as well-- even though the constant raids have (thankfully) stopped, pretending that "Oh, we were better than this" when it had the exact same impact on the players involved as Saz is discussing here is extraordinarily frustrating.
Don't laud yourself while at the same time condemning someone else for fostering the same atmosphere. Please, take a few steps back and actually look at it. Strip out any notion that you might have of how you were "playing fair" (because I can assure you that everyone likes to see themselves in the most positive of lights) and look at it from the perspective of the people you were going against. If they were being made to feel like Saz has posted about, then it is absolutely and 100% a fair comparison (tip: they were made to feel this way).
Sigh.
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Mostly unrelated to the above: Rideta, ICly it's very hard for organizations to actually agree to anything like that. There was a period of time where Glomdoring went well above and beyond what we needed to do to Serenwilde and held out the "If you want it to stop RP surrender to us" branch. They never did. Why? That was the last shred of remaining RP that they had, resistance to us. They discussed how surrendering / begging for mercy would basically just leave them a hollow shell, and there is a valid argument to make there (would you like Magnagora to surrender to Celest, for example?). It's a very tough decision.
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I feel that an OOC level it's important for players to keep in mind the other players involved in other organizations as well. We want them to have fun.
We want our folks to have fun, too.
I do think that raids are an important part of the game. I also strongly feel that excessive raiding is not good for the game, because it just drains and exhausts those people who we need to stick around. It is up to us as players to work with each other to try to find a good balance (and no, "never raid us ever!" isn't a valid balance either).
It's not really fair to expect the admin to step in to handhold us, or to make lots of mechanical changes to deal with us. We make our own problems a lot of the time, and it's up to us to figure out a good way to deal with them to the benefit of the most of us.
Nobody wants to roleplay with Avurekhos with the constant hit and run of his former home, epic quest grief, leaving Lisaera as an Avatar and joining Fain, not leaving for any real valid reason etc. This is not someone who wants to be talked to, in my eyes.
Okay -- I know you think you're some kind of scholar on roleplay or think you've seen it all, but that doesn't mean you get to belittle or call his roleplay invalid.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
You've got me there! Afraid I was on my break when most of that bout of Magnagoran RP history was happening. I only remember Marcella getting hung a few times for IC RP things.
And if we want to talk history, Magnagora (or the Iron Council) has never given a serious effort to "reign in" their rowdier citizens: see Marcella and Arcanis for recent times.
It took them a long time and a couple of Warlords, but they eventually put both Arcanis and Marcella on a one-strike-and-out warning (it was part of our Treaty with them, in fact). So they do have the ability and willingness to do it if they have to.
Need to be fair about it (yes, it took them a long time, a lot of anger / frustration / etc, but it did happen).
You've got me there! Afraid I was on my break when most of that bout of Magnagoran RP history was happening. I only remember Marcella getting hung a few times for IC RP things.
Also being fair: Marcella begged for the hanging every time, she wanted it, and nobody (except maybe a small handful of Mags) ever saw it as real punishment.
The threat to be booted out of Magnagora was a real punishment.
You've got me there! Afraid I was on my break when most of that bout of Magnagoran RP history was happening. I only remember Marcella getting hung a few times for IC RP things.
Also being fair: Marcella begged for the hanging every time, she wanted it, and nobody (except maybe a small handful of Mags) ever saw it as real punishment.
The threat to be booted out of Magnagora was a real punishment.
Man. That's what I get for disappearing. I swear I missed out on the best Magdrama How did it end?
I don't think it's fair for anyone, on any side, to try to invalidate the fact that someone is not having fun in this game because of the actions of others. Honestly I couldn't care less what the game was like "back in the day" or how much you had to endure because of some other griefers that played multiple years ago. The game's population is low enough as it is. We don't need to tell people to just suck it up or anything because if someone felt they needed to bring it up the more likely outcome is that when nothing changes they'll just stop playing the game altogether.
And yes, this is also aimed at people who play in the same org/side as me.
Mostly unrelated to the above: Rideta, ICly it's very hard for organizations to actually agree to anything like that. There was a period of time where Glomdoring went well above and beyond what we needed to do to Serenwilde and held out the "If you want it to stop RP surrender to us" branch. They never did. Why? That was the last shred of remaining RP that they had, resistance to us. They discussed how surrendering / begging for mercy would basically just leave them a hollow shell, and there is a valid argument to make there (would you like Magnagora to surrender to Celest, for example?). It's a very tough decision.
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I feel that an OOC level it's important for players to keep in mind the other players involved in other organizations as well. We want them to have fun.
We want our folks to have fun, too.
I do think that raids are an important part of the game. I also strongly feel that excessive raiding is not good for the game, because it just drains and exhausts those people who we need to stick around. It is up to us as players to work with each other to try to find a good balance (and no, "never raid us ever!" isn't a valid balance either).
It's not really fair to expect the admin to step in to handhold us, or to make lots of mechanical changes to deal with us. We make our own problems a lot of the time, and it's up to us to figure out a good way to deal with them to the benefit of the most of us.
These are very fair observations to make, actually. I suppose I'm viewing this in the context that while we aren't fond of eachother, Mag/Seren aren't at the polar opposites of the spectrum like Gaudi/Halli or Celest/Mag. They're a side project. I could be wrong.
That being said though, I would argue that doing literally anything IC, in any capacity, should be the avenue run through first. Perhaps not utter surrender, I mean obviously not total surrender, but even hashing out potential options would be a good place to begin... right? Clearly there's enough going on to warrant treating with the enemy.
(Magnagora): Thax says, "My truest favour to the soldier that brings me the weave of Neos."
My two cents: Common sense says if you want to play a game with other people, the least you can do is make it a game other people want to continue playing.
If you're not doing that, soul search a little as to why. Because an empty game is not a fun game for anyone.
This is so so sooooooooo true but can I say it extends way past PK?
I wish more people played like @Rideta. I wish people brought less of their OOC bullshit into the way their characters behave, using their IC power to try and piss on the RL players they hate. All the ooc plotting to bar players/remove players/annoy players/adopt all the kids/hold all the positions etc etc...sometimes I really miss my early days because ooc contact with anyone was a foreign concept and I was so happily oblivious to the bullshit that went on and still goes on. I'm old and cranky and all my patience and tolerance gets used up on my four children who are still learning better, I have none left over for pissy adults who think it is funny to try and drive me from the game. Can't get at Lavy? I know, let's now cast shade at her alt! THAT WILL SHOW HER! Yeah, it really doesn't. If anything, it bugs the other people playing with me and is more likely to drive -them- away from the game than me. I will keep playing out of pure spite if I have to.
Here's the thing. It's not that Serenwilde is capitulating to Magnagora or anything. We're fighting these guys off all the time. It's just that they just constantly come back as soon as they see the defenders are gone and pick off mobs/non-coms. These guys aren't looking for a fight. They're looking to grief.
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Let's be clear about something. It's ok to ICly dislike each other. But OOCly, we should care about one another as players. We're a community. OOCly, I could not care less which organization is winning the Best Org of the Moment trophy, because I know that revolving door will spin and spin. I have no beef with Magnagora because it's a pretendy fun time city in a pretendy fun time game and it doesn't actually exist.
But.
The times I've had to leave Lusternia, personally, have almost always been thanks to how certain IC actions affected me as a player OOCly. Sometimes that's a "thin skin" issue, but other times it's legitimately because someone is not playing nicely in the sandbox and you have to just peace out until you've got the energy to come back again. We come to Lusternia to blow off steam and have a good time. If the pro/con list of "should I log in" versus "should I not log in" is more skewed towards the con end of things, people won't log in. As well they shouldn't, honestly, because this is a game people play to have fun.
So it doesn't hurt to remember that sometimes: we are here to have fun with each other and enjoy the game. If the game stops being fun, we're doing something wrong.
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
I am profoundly unhappy to have watched Rossdis functionally win a vengeance game without saying or doing a single thing, no offense to the player who I am led to understand timed out. I would have pulled out RL hair if I had any to spare.
Nobody wants to roleplay with Avurekhos with the constant hit and run of his former home, epic quest grief, leaving Lisaera as an Avatar and joining Fain, not leaving for any real valid reason etc. This is not someone who wants to be talked to, in my eyes.
Okay -- I know you think you're some kind of scholar on roleplay or think you've seen it all, but that doesn't mean you get to belittle or call his roleplay invalid.
I mean...the difference here being that Saz has done -none- of these things, nor has Avurekhos made a post outlining why he's literally -quitting the game- because of the actions of his former Seren communemates. Come on.
My point is that you really shouldn't say I can't "invalidate someone's feelings" and in almost the same breath invalidate Avurekhos' rp and why he does what he does.
Not only that, but I'm pretty sure you've defended Ciaran raiding Glomdoring strictly for the fact that he needed a pk fix, which really has no rp to it. Avurekhos, who I've been roleplaying with and quite literally twisting to use as a weapon to strike at Lisaera, has a reason to raid. If you bothered to rp with Magnagora, or even Shaddus (who you'll notice is unenemied to your city and order), maybe you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Avurekhos.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
The OOC plotting and bullying was a major part of the reason I left two years ago. How can a game be fun when the playerbase is trying to spite one another so much?
Rideta was spot on about people being unable to seperate between players and characters, this doesn't just lead to an unhealthy dislike of people you know little to nothing about, but also leaves people almost willingly blind at times when their own allies engage in behaviour they would normally cry foul at.
The "us vs them" mindset is great for establishing some character identity but it shouldn't be a factor of this game as players.
This is the same dumb thing you see when people treat others like crap for being Alliance/Horde in Warcraft. The difference is they're a community of millions, this is a small place and the ripples of such pointless ill feeling are felt by everyone.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Man. I roleplayed with Marcella, and -- you can say what you want about her, but she had an extremely keen mind for lore and interpretation of such. For example, I would've never made the connection that krokani were banned from becoming vernal gods after shards figured out that Crazen could corrupt them because he has Krokano's original eyes. Marcella did, though (and obviously I don't know the full story, like maybe she picked that up from someone else or there was a lore bit in a quest (most likely the Goloth questline gave her the idea?))...but I digress. The point is, I don't really feel the need to roleplay with a Magnagoran because I've seen a good bit of it -- more than dipped my toes into their philosophy and thought about it for a good long time. I also blame my copious alting for this disinterest.
The point I was trying to make is that Avurekhos is far from innocent, and he has many strikes against him that -do- make me think less of his motivations. And you know, I think I can say that there's definitely a chance that I'm totally in the wrong for thinking like that. The issue is -- are -you- going to own up to the fact that you just told Saz to "toughen up" like Ciaran just did a few posts ago?
My point is that you really shouldn't say I can't "invalidate someone's feelings" and in almost the same breath invalidate Avurekhos' rp and why he does what he does.
Not only that, but I'm pretty sure you've defended Ciaran raiding Glomdoring strictly for the fact that he needed a pk fix, which really has no rp to it. Avurekhos, who I've been roleplaying with and quite literally twisting to use as a weapon to strike at Lisaera, has a reason to raid. If you bothered to rp with Magnagora, or even Shaddus (who you'll notice is unenemied to your city and order), maybe you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Avurekhos.
Also, jeez, I'm sorry -- I do remember defending Ciaran for raiding. I don't remember defending him for griefing.
Man, when I complained I got told to toughen up and take it. Glad to see the other side wants to see it stop too now.
Sorry to hear about your leaving Saz, I know exactly how you feel, and I wish you didn't feel forced into this because it sucks, majorly. Take a bit of a break, and also ignore raids when you're just not feeling it if you decide to keep playing, even if it means all the time, and ignore people who force you into defending if it's just not your cup of tea. I hope whatever you choose, you're happy and you're enjoying yourself, always a sad day to lose a Lusternia player.
Your false equivalence is bullshit.
Toughen up
I mean we talked about Raiding before Ciaran.
Now I've been someone who's been on the receiving end of your, others and avurekhos raids. The ones where we we're super out numbered and had no chance and that went on all day long, the ones where it was just 1 person raiding and running as soon as enough pk people came to fight them off and the raids that have been pretty balanced. And I've done raids in a similar fashion(Except the day long massively outnumbered raids because any raid where I've been on a bigger number side has stopped usually after about an hour or so.
Now I enjoyed them to some extent and I've gotten bored of the ones that had no hope either way.
I can get how other people didn't but the experience Saz and Dylara have had is pretty identical. So you can't really be dismissing her like that.
EDIT: Actually Dylara's experience was a bit different she had to deal with larger raids than Saz did but the principal is the same I guesss.
I'm just annoyed. Trying to speak completely objectively here: Avurekhos raided Glomdoring a -lot-, especially when Caerlyr was around. Now he's doing the same thing to Serenwilde. And it seems like most people are changing their tune to fit the alliance. It bothers me.
I'm just annoyed. Trying to speak completely objectively here: Avurekhos raided Glomdoring a -lot-, especially when Caerlyr was around. Now he's doing the same thing to Serenwilde. And it seems like most people are changing their tune to fit the alliance. It bothers me.
Yea there's a lot of double speak it seems, people who were defending him a few months ago are now his biggest critic etc vise versa and so on.
Also, jeez, I'm sorry -- I do remember defending Ciaran for raiding. I don't remember defending him for griefing.
If you'd be so kind as to let let us know where one ends and the other begins, that'd be great. Otherwise I have this odd idea that everyone's opinion is different.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
Ponder the idea that the person raiding you used to raid others, and you didn't try to stop it. Ponder the idea that other people have likely quit because they kept getting raided constantly.
No offense, Saz, but you aren't a special snowflake. You're somewhat new, and this crap you're going through is absolutely -nothing- compared to the griefing that used to go on. I don't want to see you up and quit, but if conflict is bothering you that much, maybe it's better for your mental health if you jump ship. Serenwilde will find someone easily to replace you, and the game will go on without you. I mean, quitting fixes it. Right? Giving up makes the pain go away.
Also, what Rideta said, but with less sarcasm than my earlier stuff.
New people are going to see your attitude and not want to play. That is just the worst kind of message you can send.
edit: oh yeah, can't forget the elder moonhart chopping
That still leaves lots of RP open in the actual Seren commune though, especially in regards to characters growing and changing, learning how the other communes/cities (Hoboy especially CelestMag) deal with epic quest problems. Or heck, even just approaching the Mag Warlord IG to start talk about "Hey uh, can you reign him in a bit?".
And if we want to talk history, Magnagora (or the Iron Council) has never given a serious effort to "reign in" their rowdier citizens: see Marcella and Arcanis for recent times.
Don't laud yourself while at the same time condemning someone else for fostering the same atmosphere. Please, take a few steps back and actually look at it. Strip out any notion that you might have of how you were "playing fair" (because I can assure you that everyone likes to see themselves in the most positive of lights) and look at it from the perspective of the people you were going against. If they were being made to feel like Saz has posted about, then it is absolutely and 100% a fair comparison (tip: they were made to feel this way).
Sigh.
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Mostly unrelated to the above: Rideta, ICly it's very hard for organizations to actually agree to anything like that. There was a period of time where Glomdoring went well above and beyond what we needed to do to Serenwilde and held out the "If you want it to stop RP surrender to us" branch. They never did. Why? That was the last shred of remaining RP that they had, resistance to us. They discussed how surrendering / begging for mercy would basically just leave them a hollow shell, and there is a valid argument to make there (would you like Magnagora to surrender to Celest, for example?). It's a very tough decision.
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I feel that an OOC level it's important for players to keep in mind the other players involved in other organizations as well. We want them to have fun.
We want our folks to have fun, too.
I do think that raids are an important part of the game. I also strongly feel that excessive raiding is not good for the game, because it just drains and exhausts those people who we need to stick around. It is up to us as players to work with each other to try to find a good balance (and no, "never raid us ever!" isn't a valid balance either).
It's not really fair to expect the admin to step in to handhold us, or to make lots of mechanical changes to deal with us. We make our own problems a lot of the time, and it's up to us to figure out a good way to deal with them to the benefit of the most of us.
Need to be fair about it (yes, it took them a long time, a lot of anger / frustration / etc, but it did happen).
The threat to be booted out of Magnagora was a real punishment.
And yes, this is also aimed at people who play in the same org/side as me.
These are very fair observations to make, actually. I suppose I'm viewing this in the context that while we aren't fond of eachother, Mag/Seren aren't at the polar opposites of the spectrum like Gaudi/Halli or Celest/Mag. They're a side project. I could be wrong.
That being said though, I would argue that doing literally anything IC, in any capacity, should be the avenue run through first. Perhaps not utter surrender, I mean obviously not total surrender, but even hashing out potential options would be a good place to begin... right? Clearly there's enough going on to warrant treating with the enemy.
I wish more people played like @Rideta. I wish people brought less of their OOC bullshit into the way their characters behave, using their IC power to try and piss on the RL players they hate. All the ooc plotting to bar players/remove players/annoy players/adopt all the kids/hold all the positions etc etc...sometimes I really miss my early days because ooc contact with anyone was a foreign concept and I was so happily oblivious to the bullshit that went on and still goes on. I'm old and cranky and all my patience and tolerance gets used up on my four children who are still learning better, I have none left over for pissy adults who think it is funny to try and drive me from the game. Can't get at Lavy? I know, let's now cast shade at her alt! THAT WILL SHOW HER! Yeah, it really doesn't. If anything, it bugs the other people playing with me and is more likely to drive -them- away from the game than me. I will keep playing out of pure spite if I have to.
But.
The times I've had to leave Lusternia, personally, have almost always been thanks to how certain IC actions affected me as a player OOCly. Sometimes that's a "thin skin" issue, but other times it's legitimately because someone is not playing nicely in the sandbox and you have to just peace out until you've got the energy to come back again. We come to Lusternia to blow off steam and have a good time. If the pro/con list of "should I log in" versus "should I not log in" is more skewed towards the con end of things, people won't log in. As well they shouldn't, honestly, because this is a game people play to have fun.
So it doesn't hurt to remember that sometimes: we are here to have fun with each other and enjoy the game. If the game stops being fun, we're doing something wrong.
Not only that, but I'm pretty sure you've defended Ciaran raiding Glomdoring strictly for the fact that he needed a pk fix, which really has no rp to it. Avurekhos, who I've been roleplaying with and quite literally twisting to use as a weapon to strike at Lisaera, has a reason to raid. If you bothered to rp with Magnagora, or even Shaddus (who you'll notice is unenemied to your city and order), maybe you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Avurekhos.
Rideta was spot on about people being unable to seperate between players and characters, this doesn't just lead to an unhealthy dislike of people you know little to nothing about, but also leaves people almost willingly blind at times when their own allies engage in behaviour they would normally cry foul at.
The "us vs them" mindset is great for establishing some character identity but it shouldn't be a factor of this game as players.
This is the same dumb thing you see when people treat others like crap for being Alliance/Horde in Warcraft. The difference is they're a community of millions, this is a small place and the ripples of such pointless ill feeling are felt by everyone.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The point I was trying to make is that Avurekhos is far from innocent, and he has many strikes against him that -do- make me think less of his motivations. And you know, I think I can say that there's definitely a chance that I'm totally in the wrong for thinking like that. The issue is -- are -you- going to own up to the fact that you just told Saz to "toughen up" like Ciaran just did a few posts ago?
I mean we talked about Raiding before Ciaran.
Now I've been someone who's been on the receiving end of your, others and avurekhos raids. The ones where we we're super out numbered and had no chance and that went on all day long, the ones where it was just 1 person raiding and running as soon as enough pk people came to fight them off and the raids that have been pretty balanced. And I've done raids in a similar fashion(Except the day long massively outnumbered raids because any raid where I've been on a bigger number side has stopped usually after about an hour or so.
Now I enjoyed them to some extent and I've gotten bored of the ones that had no hope either way.
I can get how other people didn't but the experience Saz and Dylara have had is pretty identical. So you can't really be dismissing her like that.
EDIT: Actually Dylara's experience was a bit different she had to deal with larger raids than Saz did but the principal is the same I guesss.
Yea there's a lot of double speak it seems, people who were defending him a few months ago are now his biggest critic etc vise versa and so on.
If you'd be so kind as to let let us know where one ends and the other begins, that'd be great. Otherwise I have this odd idea that everyone's opinion is different.