I'm just curious as to why the general complaint is coming from the one org that most of the time has other orgs getting it for them. Even though Dysolis started the topic
Also if some other way of empowering the lords happened I would be for it, I want to switch it up to make it so that people hogging the manifestations get less thats the whole point of the thread actually.
Also if some other way of empowering the lords happened I would be for it, I want to switch it up to make it so that people hogging the manifestations get less thats the whole point of the thread actually.
You want to basically give people ways to empower the elemental lords/aspects instead of paying attention and working hard to find manifestations/sands?
Why not just let all essence always be worth five power?
(/sarcasm)
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm sorry, but "I don't want to stay up late" is not really a valid reason to change things. People like Xenthos, who are willing and able to put in that kind of extreme effort can monopolize the sands alone. If you can't, then work on it as a team. Empowering aspects isn't meant to be easily done by a single person unless they jump through some hoops.
A change should be considered if there is a balance concern, like what Xenthos and Talan are arguing about: whether or not the sands can be unfairly monopolized. Nothing short of a balance concern should validate a change in the status quo.
If someone is willing to take extra time to hoard/monopolize manis and you aren't, that's not their fault. Fortune favours those who give a damn.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Obviously the solution is to bring in a coded time limit per day for playing, so everyone is even in the number of hours they can play the game and it's not skewed towards those lucky bastards with more hours to spend on the game than me.
(Alright players, 10 minutes until bedtime, finish up your conversations and hunting in time for tuck-in.)
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
People are killing the manifestations the 1st of vestian which means its not possible to get sands on the next month am I right?
no, there is a chance the manifestation will not give the sand till the 2nd of the next month, you kill on the 1st you are tempting not getting the sand for it at all. Really.. just killing them when we can really.
The soft, hollow voice of Nocht, the Silent resounds within your mind as His words echo through the aether, "Congratulations, Arimisia. Your mastery of vermin cannot be disputed."
I'm sorry, but "I don't want to stay up late" is not really a valid reason to change things. People like Xenthos, who are willing and able to put in that kind of extreme effort can monopolize the sands alone. If you can't, then work on it as a team. Empowering aspects isn't meant to be easily done by a single person unless they jump through some hoops.
A change should be considered if there is a balance concern, like what Xenthos and Talan are arguing about: whether or not the sands can be unfairly monopolized. Nothing short of a balance concern should validate a change in the status quo.
Sorry man, but I beg to differ. Being expected to be up at 3am in the morning to get the jump on killing manifestations when you have work/university/school that same day shouldn't be expected of ANYONE. Having some semblence of randomness rather than being the same time every year means that people all get a fair chance at doing it.
Personally I'd love to see something along the lines of how revolts/flares work, manifestations spawn at a random time in purely random locations every X weaves and it becomes first come, first served rather than being "First person to sit at their spawn point on Vestian 2"
EDIT: Sleepy-time mind-ramblings, but I'd also like to see some more locations that Manifestations could potentially appear, maybe add Faethorn to the list, or come up with some kind of excuse to have them appear in places in Prime, like Icewynd/Undervault (something like "At a random time each year, the Manifestations reach the peak of their strength and form a tangible presence in the Prime Material Plane")
Also if some other way of empowering the lords
happened I would be for it, I want to switch it up to make it so that
people hogging the manifestations get less thats the whole point of the
thread actually.
You want to basically give people ways to empower the elemental
lords/aspects instead of paying attention and working hard to find
manifestations/sands?
Why not just let all essence always be worth five power?
(/sarcasm)
Why NOT have an alternate way to empower the Elemental Lords besides uber-powerful manifestations that only Demigods and Ascendants can typically defeat? Younger members of the city deserve ways to be able to contribute to the empowering of their city besides the wholesale slaughter of elemental beasts and empowering cosmic plane denizens (which again is controlled primarily by whether or not someone goes on a rampage and slays the empowered tide lords, typically a demigod or ascendant, leaving said younglings only contributing 1-2 power per essence).
For example the Water Elemental quest could be something like they go to an unempowered tide lord, who gives them a talisman to empower, sending them to a location (maybe the Cay for example) and getting them to empower 15 orbs, when they return the talisman to the tidal lord, it becomes empowered like it has been given a sands. In any case, this is purely an idea off the top of my head.
If you are worried about Demigods and Ascendants using it as an easier path over killing Manifestations, place a level cap on the task/quest so that anyone over XYth circle can not do the quest.
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
Sorry man, but I beg to differ. Being expected to be up at 3am in the morning to get the jump on killing manifestations when you have work/university/school that same day shouldn't be expected of ANYONE. Having some semblence of randomness rather than being the same time every year means that people all get a fair chance at doing it.
Being expected to be up at 3am in the morning to get the jump on killing manifestations is a perfectly reasonable requirement if you're trying to do it alone. Read: the admin likely never intended it to be done alone. The very fact that it can be done alone is a point of debate that it may be too easy. You do not have to be up at 3am if you choose to coordinate it as a team effort, the way it was likely intended to be done.
If you want to insist on doing it alone, fine. But don't be all scandalized when you realize you can't do so without putting in some serious effort.
Any change to the rules of a contest, must be founded on whether or not it is inherently fair to all players. No exceptions. If there are mechanical exploits that make it difficult or impossible for one participant to try, even if they have the same amount of coordination, then yes, changes may well be warranted. For example, does getting the first kill on manifestations mean that you can totally lock out of other people who are capable and trying to get a hand in it? There are some who are arguing that yes, it is far too easy to maintain a monopoly, making the contest unfair, and there are others who argue that no, people who do that are still susceptible to getting jumped when they go out to take the manifestations that have reset etc.
If you want to add to that argument, or offer another perspective on the mechanical fairness of the contest, go ahead. But "I have a full-time job, and a full-time university education, and have to take care of my grandmother's best friend, and I STILL want to be able to complete this quest alone." is hardly an acceptable reason to change the way manifestations work..
Sorry man, but I beg to differ. Being expected to be up at 3am in the morning to get the jump on killing manifestations when you have work/university/school that same day shouldn't be expected of ANYONE. Having some semblence of randomness rather than being the same time every year means that people all get a fair chance at doing it.
Being expected to be up at 3am in the morning to get the jump on killing manifestations is a perfectly reasonable requirement if you're trying to do it alone. Read: the admin likely never intended it to be done alone. The very fact that it can be done alone is a point of debate that it may be too easy. You do not have to be up at 3am if you choose to coordinate it as a team effort, the way it was likely intended to be done.
If you want to insist on doing it alone, fine. But don't be all scandalized when you realize you can't do so without putting in some serious effort.
Any change to the rules of a contest, must be founded on whether or not it is inherently fair to all players. No exceptions. If there are mechanical exploits that make it difficult or impossible for one participant to try, even if they have the same amount of coordination, then yes, changes may well be warranted. For example, does getting the first kill on manifestations mean that you can totally lock out of other people who are capable and trying to get a hand in it? There are some who are arguing that yes, it is far too easy to maintain a monopoly, making the contest unfair, and there are others who argue that no, people who do that are still susceptible to getting jumped when they go out to take the manifestations that have reset etc.
If you want to add to that argument, or offer another perspective on the mechanical fairness of the contest, go ahead. But "I have a full-time job, and a full-time university education, and have to take care of my grandmother's best friend, and I STILL want to be able to complete this quest alone." is hardly an acceptable reason to change the way manifestations work..
To be honest, that kind of mindset is what caused me to become burned out and is the key reason why I rarely, if ever log in anymore. Yes I have a heavy workload, far heavier than most people. I work 3 part-time jobs, I run a bodycare business, I study at university, I help take care of my 2 nieces and that is just scratching the surface of what I do. I'm on my feet a good 100+ hours a week. I'm not going to give up what little sleep I DO get because you are so deadset against levelling the playing field a teensy bit by adding some semblence of randomness into the mix.
You talk about "changing the rules of a contest". Empowering the Elemental Lords is not a contest. It is an in-game mechanic, same as Wildnodes, Aetherflares, Revolts and other events that happen, the only exception being that while these 3 events are at a completely random time, Manifestations generate sand at the SAME TIME EVERY YEAR WITHOUT FAIL. It could stand to use more than a little tweaking to level out the playing field on all sides.
Never put passion before principle. Even if you win, you lose.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
From someone who has one of the higher /played times each week on average, I'm firmly against any notion where people feel obliged to log in, be it social or none social hours, on a regular basis to not miss out on a significant mechanic. Logging in should be a choice of want to, not have to.
The question is, does the current system of manifestations and sands come under that definition?
People pass up revolts and flares when they happen, and overlook nodes. But none of those come close to the potential power generation of sands. Is there more value on them, and thus more pressure to obtain them?
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
... You talk about "changing the rules of a contest". Empowering the Elemental Lords is not a contest. It is an in-game mechanic, same as Wildnodes, Aetherflares, Revolts and other events that happen, the only exception being that while these 3 events are at a completely random time, Manifestations generate sand at the SAME TIME EVERY YEAR WITHOUT FAIL. It could stand to use more than a little tweaking to level out the playing field on all sides.
Wildnodes, revolts, aetherflares etc are all contests. Players compete with each other for a reward, for the win. Manifestations is no different, especially the way it was set up: sands spawn only at a specific time of the year. There are limited resources. The effects of success leads to rewards that last until the next sands-spawn. Revolts, aetherflares and wildnodes happen on a cycle, without fail either. Wildnodes always happen on a Sunday, fortnightly. Revolts have a 7-day gap between each other. Aetherflares have a 12-day gap between each other. All of these are cyclical contests. Manifestations are no different.
All contests must be fair to participants within reasonable limits. You say that it can "stand to use more than a little tweaking to level out the playing field"... implying that the playing field is not level. Prove it. Make your argument. If your argument holds weight, then yes, let us change the rules. If the contest is already fair, then the playing field is level, and there is no justification for changing the status quo.
You imply that I am somehow being a big meanie, with a mindset that is trying to burn you out. You claim that manifestations is not a contest. And then you imply that there is "unfairness" to it. You're not making sense. If it's not a contest, then there is no need for it to be fair. If it's just a quest that everyone can do, at any time, without needing to compete with each other, then there is no need for there to be rules like the ones that govern manifestations. If there is something fair or unfair about manifestations, then it is a contest, and then fairness must be upheld. You give no explanation as to where this unfairness is beyond "I can't put in the effort needed, but I still want to win."
Well, if you want to accuse me of trying to burn you out, then I'm very sorry. The only thing I have to say to you is, "Too bad."
I get irritated all the time that my gaming is interrupted by the fact that I have a busy life. I don't really expect everyone else that does have a lot more time to put into the game than I do to be hindered to appease me. That would be a more messed up mindset. If people have more time than me, lucky them, keep an eye on the mail I'll send them a kid or two. But I can't begrudge them the rewards from dedicating more time to the game.
Manifestations may have been tracked down a lot lately, I don't know I haven't looked. But there have been plenty of times when I have found sands by surprise. Dedication pays off, but it's still not a guaranteed lock down.
I want a way that doesn't have serious side effects when staying up at ungodly hours playing Lusternia most of of us have a life outside the game.
I don't get why you'd have to be up at an ungodly hour. AFAIK what you need is consistency and not any particular hour. It is true that if you're hunting manifestations when the game is crowded you you might draw attention and
Sorry man, but I beg to differ. Being expected to be up at 3am in the morning to get the jump on killing manifestations when you have work/university/school that same day shouldn't be expected of ANYONE. Having some semblence of randomness rather than being the same time every year means that people all get a fair chance at doing it.
Being expected to be up at 3am in the morning to get the jump on killing manifestations is a perfectly reasonable requirement if you're trying to do it alone. Read: the admin likely never intended it to be done alone. The very fact that it can be done alone is a point of debate that it may be too easy. You do not have to be up at 3am if you choose to coordinate it as a team effort, the way it was likely intended to be done.
If you want to insist on doing it alone, fine. But don't be all scandalized when you realize you can't do so without putting in some serious effort.
Any change to the rules of a contest, must be founded on whether or not it is inherently fair to all players. No exceptions. If there are mechanical exploits that make it difficult or impossible for one participant to try, even if they have the same amount of coordination, then yes, changes may well be warranted. For example, does getting the first kill on manifestations mean that you can totally lock out of other people who are capable and trying to get a hand in it? There are some who are arguing that yes, it is far too easy to maintain a monopoly, making the contest unfair, and there are others who argue that no, people who do that are still susceptible to getting jumped when they go out to take the manifestations that have reset etc.
If you want to add to that argument, or offer another perspective on the mechanical fairness of the contest, go ahead. But "I have a full-time job, and a full-time university education, and have to take care of my grandmother's best friend, and I STILL want to be able to complete this quest alone." is hardly an acceptable reason to change the way manifestations work..
To be honest, that kind of mindset is what caused me to become burned out and is the key reason why I rarely, if ever log in anymore. Yes I have a heavy workload, far heavier than most people. I work 3 part-time jobs, I run a bodycare business, I study at university, I help take care of my 2 nieces and that is just scratching the surface of what I do. I'm on my feet a good 100+ hours a week. I'm not going to give up what little sleep I DO get because you are so deadset against levelling the playing field a teensy bit by adding some semblence of randomness into the mix.
You talk about "changing the rules of a contest". Empowering the Elemental Lords is not a contest. It is an in-game mechanic, same as Wildnodes, Aetherflares, Revolts and other events that happen, the only exception being that while these 3 events are at a completely random time, Manifestations generate sand at the SAME TIME EVERY YEAR WITHOUT FAIL. It could stand to use more than a little tweaking to level out the playing field on all sides.
The thing is you don't have to be on at 3 am. That they generate sands at the same time each year while true doesn't seem to matter given that the year rotates and given that they don't have to be gathered on the game day.
For those tracking these things, Gaudi got two sands this year.
But none of those come close to the potential power generation of sands. Is there more value on them, and thus more pressure to obtain them?
Many orgs offer credit incentives for these, and there still are only a very small number willing to remember them and seek them out. There is potential for more value, but that value holds no meaning if people aren't willing to constantly clear out the elemental planes of essence. I feel like this is precisely what happens - people get sands all the time, people get used to essence always being worth 5 power, people stop bothering with essence because they are used to it, people stop bothering with sands in kind. Then, because essence isn't worth 5 power each anymore, it turns into a feedback loop where people can't be bothered.
Then some other orgs, who haven't had 5 power essence in ages, pick up the slack, and they hoard the sands until this passes once again, and then it will be some other org after that.
It doesn't take a tough character to get this done. I did it pretty often about a year ago now, with no artifacts or beastmatery, and no titan/demi benefits, as a trill caster. Will it be dangerous? Oh, sure it will! The manifestation's heavy hit alone was almost enough to one-shot me. Will it be easy? No, especially not getting around on astral without Boots/cubix. But if you really want it, is it doable?
Yes.
If anything, that might be precisely why some people get so focused on them. It's much more attainable for a given segment of the population than gunning to win a violent revolt, particularly when you have zero influence on exactly when that revolt might occur.
Comments
Why not just let all essence always be worth five power?
(/sarcasm)
A change should be considered if there is a balance concern, like what Xenthos and Talan are arguing about: whether or not the sands can be unfairly monopolized. Nothing short of a balance concern should validate a change in the status quo.
(Alright players, 10 minutes until bedtime, finish up your conversations and hunting in time for tuck-in.)
Only if I get an Elder God/Goddess to personally tuck my character in every night.
Personally I'd love to see something along the lines of how revolts/flares work, manifestations spawn at a random time in purely random locations every X weaves and it becomes first come, first served rather than being "First person to sit at their spawn point on Vestian 2"
EDIT: Sleepy-time mind-ramblings, but I'd also like to see some more locations that Manifestations could potentially appear, maybe add Faethorn to the list, or come up with some kind of excuse to have them appear in places in Prime, like Icewynd/Undervault (something like "At a random time each year, the Manifestations reach the peak of their strength and form a tangible presence in the Prime Material Plane")
Why NOT have an alternate way to empower the Elemental Lords besides uber-powerful manifestations that only Demigods and Ascendants can typically defeat? Younger members of the city deserve ways to be able to contribute to the empowering of their city besides the wholesale slaughter of elemental beasts and empowering cosmic plane denizens (which again is controlled primarily by whether or not someone goes on a rampage and slays the empowered tide lords, typically a demigod or ascendant, leaving said younglings only contributing 1-2 power per essence).
For example the Water Elemental quest could be something like they go to an unempowered tide lord, who gives them a talisman to empower, sending them to a location (maybe the Cay for example) and getting them to empower 15 orbs, when they return the talisman to the tidal lord, it becomes empowered like it has been given a sands. In any case, this is purely an idea off the top of my head.
If you are worried about Demigods and Ascendants using it as an easier path over killing Manifestations, place a level cap on the task/quest so that anyone over XYth circle can not do the quest.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
If you want to insist on doing it alone, fine. But don't be all scandalized when you realize you can't do so without putting in some serious effort.
Any change to the rules of a contest, must be founded on whether or not it is inherently fair to all players. No exceptions. If there are mechanical exploits that make it difficult or impossible for one participant to try, even if they have the same amount of coordination, then yes, changes may well be warranted. For example, does getting the first kill on manifestations mean that you can totally lock out of other people who are capable and trying to get a hand in it? There are some who are arguing that yes, it is far too easy to maintain a monopoly, making the contest unfair, and there are others who argue that no, people who do that are still susceptible to getting jumped when they go out to take the manifestations that have reset etc.
If you want to add to that argument, or offer another perspective on the mechanical fairness of the contest, go ahead. But "I have a full-time job, and a full-time university education, and have to take care of my grandmother's best friend, and I STILL want to be able to complete this quest alone." is hardly an acceptable reason to change the way manifestations work..
To be honest, that kind of mindset is what caused me to become burned out and is the key reason why I rarely, if ever log in anymore. Yes I have a heavy workload, far heavier than most people. I work 3 part-time jobs, I run a bodycare business, I study at university, I help take care of my 2 nieces and that is just scratching the surface of what I do. I'm on my feet a good 100+ hours a week. I'm not going to give up what little sleep I DO get because you are so deadset against levelling the playing field a teensy bit by adding some semblence of randomness into the mix.
You talk about "changing the rules of a contest". Empowering the Elemental Lords is not a contest. It is an in-game mechanic, same as Wildnodes, Aetherflares, Revolts and other events that happen, the only exception being that while these 3 events are at a completely random time, Manifestations generate sand at the SAME TIME EVERY YEAR WITHOUT FAIL. It could stand to use more than a little tweaking to level out the playing field on all sides.
If olive oil comes from olives, where does baby oil come from?
If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?
The question is, does the current system of manifestations and sands come under that definition?
People pass up revolts and flares when they happen, and overlook nodes. But none of those come close to the potential power generation of sands. Is there more value on them, and thus more pressure to obtain them?
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Wildnodes, revolts, aetherflares etc are all contests. Players compete with each other for a reward, for the win. Manifestations is no different, especially the way it was set up: sands spawn only at a specific time of the year. There are limited resources. The effects of success leads to rewards that last until the next sands-spawn. Revolts, aetherflares and wildnodes happen on a cycle, without fail either. Wildnodes always happen on a Sunday, fortnightly. Revolts have a 7-day gap between each other. Aetherflares have a 12-day gap between each other. All of these are cyclical contests. Manifestations are no different.
All contests must be fair to participants within reasonable limits. You say that it can "stand to use more than a little tweaking to level out the playing field"... implying that the playing field is not level. Prove it. Make your argument. If your argument holds weight, then yes, let us change the rules. If the contest is already fair, then the playing field is level, and there is no justification for changing the status quo.
You imply that I am somehow being a big meanie, with a mindset that is trying to burn you out. You claim that manifestations is not a contest. And then you imply that there is "unfairness" to it. You're not making sense. If it's not a contest, then there is no need for it to be fair. If it's just a quest that everyone can do, at any time, without needing to compete with each other, then there is no need for there to be rules like the ones that govern manifestations. If there is something fair or unfair about manifestations, then it is a contest, and then fairness must be upheld. You give no explanation as to where this unfairness is beyond "I can't put in the effort needed, but I still want to win."
Well, if you want to accuse me of trying to burn you out, then I'm very sorry. The only thing I have to say to you is, "Too bad."
Manifestations may have been tracked down a lot lately, I don't know I haven't looked. But there have been plenty of times when I have found sands by surprise. Dedication pays off, but it's still not a guaranteed lock down.
The thing is you don't have to be on at 3 am. That they generate sands at the same time each year while true doesn't seem to matter given that the year rotates and given that they don't have to be gathered on the game day.
For those tracking these things, Gaudi got two sands this year.
Then some other orgs, who haven't had 5 power essence in ages, pick up the slack, and they hoard the sands until this passes once again, and then it will be some other org after that.
It doesn't take a tough character to get this done. I did it pretty often about a year ago now, with no artifacts or beastmatery, and no titan/demi benefits, as a trill caster. Will it be dangerous? Oh, sure it will! The manifestation's heavy hit alone was almost enough to one-shot me. Will it be easy? No, especially not getting around on astral without Boots/cubix. But if you really want it, is it doable?
Yes.
If anything, that might be precisely why some people get so focused on them. It's much more attainable for a given segment of the population than gunning to win a violent revolt, particularly when you have zero influence on exactly when that revolt might occur.