Curious about language specifics?

Niina

I was working on a composition, when I started wondering about using the Elfen language in the song.  I asked around a bit, and I was enlightened about how language works in game mechanics.  So my question is: Would anyone be terribly upset if I used some Elven words from other sources in my songs?  There are several generators and dictionaries available, I just wasn't sure how players/admin felt about it.  Thoughts?

Ssaliss

The immediate problem I see with that approach is that as a faeling, I should understand Elfen. As a player, I won't understand the song.

Zvoltz

You're free to make up whatever words you want and claim that they are elfen. However, the administration very rarely canonizes player-created languages so players are free to act like you are speaking gibberish when you start singing "elfen" words unless they are on board with accepting your word as the language. Generally, you shouldn't import words from other sources into Lusternia (ie no Tolkien elven words or suddenly deciding the elfen speak Latin).

Niina

Agreed.  Hrm.  It would be nice to be able to use some pretty Elven words though.  Maybe I can just borrow some fae words? Nobody speaks fae, do they?

Ssaliss

There are a few phrases that are known (for instance, "D’or glom" means "have mercy upon us" and "f'ai glomdoring" means "I have no mercy"). I'm not sure if there is a complete compendium of known phrases though, and it's not a language as such (at least that I know of).

Ssaliss

Just to clarify, by "not a language as such" I mean no one speaks it and understands it all. So it'd be possible to make some phrases up, as long as you keep the ones that exist in mind.

Rialorm

As long as you don't go borrow Elven stuff from other universes. Notice how it is Elfen here, and not Elven. You could look at them for inspiration, sure, but if you go copy entire phrases from for example Tolkien Elvish, that'd be just bad. While Lusternia uses common fantasy tropes, it is an original world and I am sure the admin too would agree that this is one of our selling points.

Xenthos

The main source for comparison here is French.  There is a smattering of French as a human language dialect (so it's part of the Common language, but somewhat unusual words that some will not quite understand, such as certain English variants in the real world).

There is no French language, however.  If you try to write something entirely in French it will get shot down.  All that exists is a handful of words that came over with that set of humans and which they use as part of their every-day life.

As such, I think you could theoretically do something similar with Elfen; you could have a couple of words that are "your" variant of the language.  However, you would not reasonably be able to write an entire song with it, or even an entire line of a song.  It would most likely be two to three words most in the entire song, with the rest of it being "normal".  You would also have to deal with (potentially) funny looks from others who can speak the language and think you are just making stuff up as well (could be some semi-interesting RP there as long as you're not going overboard with it).

You'd also want to make sure you don't use any copyrighted material.

TL;DR: Make a dictionary of (at absolute most) 25 words that you can use, and only use those.  Don't add new ones to the list, don't try to talk in a foreign language, don't try to adhere to the structure of an Elven language designed by someone else.  Also, fewer is better; I'd personally suggest a list of no more than 10 words, so people can eventually figure out what you're talking about when you use those words without feeling as if you are just trying to shut them out.

If you want to talk in Elfen, then speak Elfen, I say!

Marcella

I think the only other language that we know words from is Orclach, thanks to those mobs in Shallach. Except...we don't actually know what they mean beyond guessing, which is kind of fun, I guess. Will make us look silly if they ever tell us what they *are* saying though.

Ushaara

While running around the new Plaxios lowlands area, I noticed that one of the room descriptions referenced 'lines of the rigid sixteen character lucidian script', which I think is probably the full extent of what is known about the lucidian language. But in similar fashion, you may be able to find passing references to the elfen alphabet or existing words in other room descriptions, though I'd guess that there is more reference to the fae language than elfen.

For other potential sources, I know some words used by Serenwilde have Celtic language origins, the Serenguard motto 'Feidmigh ar son an Serenguard' being Irish and am nearly sure is found in one of the Irish Fianna legends. Weren't the Spiritsinger titles of Welsh(?) origin too? Whether those titles and motto are meant to be centaur, elfen or fae phrases though, I have no idea, but may be more indicative of what 'canon' elfen is most similar to if you are able to find out. Otherwise, Xenthos' suggestions would be good ones to follow I'd think.

Hiriako

Lots of Welsh bits in Seren. Charune's order ranks were all in Welsh. 

Enyalida

I'm fairly sure they aren't supposed to be a racial language. I know that I have some Hartstone concepts that are titled in Welsh, and it's more supposed to be "Serenwilde/Hartstone secret language" than anything else. 

Spiritsingers use Manx for their titles (and several things besides, afaik), while the Serenguard just use plain Gaelic for their titles. Welsh is a cousin to both languages, which are like siblings to each other, which is nice - having an org feel based on language is pretty cool, something we should really kick off the ground!

Kalnid

A lot of the stuff in Seren comes from centaur, last I heard, but that might just be Guard stuff. It's gaelic/welsh/i dunno either way.

One thing to look at is http://www.lusternia.com/bardic/a-treatise-on-the-lucidian-language , which is a pretty impressive piece of work. It's also published ingame, if your browser displays it weird. Has a handful of words, but mostly focuses on the grammatical structure of things plus a basic set of phonemes. In other words, it tells you how to write stuff that sounds/looks like the language but doesn't tell you how to actually write it, which seems pretty ideal for songs and stuff.

Enyalida

There's a dracnari book that does similar, that's pretty good.

Niina

Rialorm said:

Notice how it is Elfen here, and not Elven.

Yes, you'll notice my spelling difference in the original post.  

I'm curious, has there not been an effort or desire to create actual language in the mechanics of the game? I would think this would be a differentiation that would help draw players from other games.

Niina

Oh, and I'd only use a few words or a line or two in a song, and it would be very well researched and thought out before anyone ever saw it.  I would like to see an administrative opinion before I do, though. 

Enyalida

There have been, but as someone pointed out, you can go to a lot of work to develop a 'phonetic' language ... Unfortunately, people who know that language but haven't read your book won't be able to understand a word you say, when they should be able to. 

Some groups of people will use a few words purportedly from a racial language, as described in one of the above mentioned language books. . There were a bunch of Gloms back in the day that would use Dracnari family words when speaking common all the time, for instance. USually, that kind of 'language slang' is the limit of phonetic racial language.

Language doesn't really play that big of a part in Lusternia for a few reasons. Not only is it impractical to learn new languages (you have to be a bookbinder), there isn't really any solid reason to speak another language. Some languages also don't have two speakers to rub together, like Taurian or Orclach. Sure, there are a handful of people with these races, or who have learned the language via bookbinding, but they don't necessarily meet, and what would be the point? 

Everiine

"Fiedmigh ar son Serenguard" and "Ah Leabhar Serenguard" are the only Irish words used by the Serenguard--the former being a guild emote that has been in the game since at least I started playing. When writing the big Serenguard history/tradition book, I took my cue from that and gave it the Irish title, passing it off as an old, old centaur language that even they forgot. I tend to think using too many words from a real language is problematic for the reasons already mentioned.

Maellio

Enyalida said:

There's a dracnari book that does similar, that's pretty good.

Indeed, written by Saaga and very frequently used by Mael [he uses all the familial terms in the book]. There's also two books on the Lucidian langauge, one again by Saaga and another more complex book by someone whose name escapes me. 

Lendren

Everiine said:

"Fiedmigh ar son Serenguard" and "Ah Leabhar Serenguard" are the only Irish words used by the Serenguard--the former being a guild emote that has been in the game since at least I started playing. When writing the big Serenguard history/tradition book, I took my cue from that and gave it the Irish title, passing it off as an old, old centaur language that even they forgot. I tend to think using too many words from a real language is problematic for the reasons already mentioned.

For the record, it's not original, Malicia was the one who got that added.

Shaddus

Just don't act like this one novice and do this number:


say (speaking in elvish) what's up, guys?

Everiine

Lendren said:

For the record, it's not original, Malicia was the one who got that added.

I thought that was true, but couldn't remember--regardless, it was already there when I started playing.

Niina

Given the obvious mechanical obstruction that Elfen and Faeling should understand Elfen dialect, I'm less inclined to use their words or even to make any up. 

Moving forward, I think using Fae would still fit my purposes, and remain within reason considering language mechanics, since no one speaks it.  I've seen Fae used in mottos and such, but I'm having trouble finding many existing words/meanings. I'm working on a list of what I can find in-game, but without access to the other forest...

Kagato

With regards to foreign languages, I will admit I do like using latin - it is where I got the name Umbra Tenuitas (Illusion/Shadow of Serenity) from for my symbol.  I agree that foreign languages should be used sparingly though, while it may sound like you are being clever/creative, it will do little but confuse other participants/players unless they already know said language or go to an out-of-game source to translate it (unless a book of that language exists in the basin)

Aerdiya

I have a similar problem with crowtongue. 

Aerdiya is a devout follower of Crow and therefore tries to use crowtongue terms as much as possible, but sadly, even though there are translations for almost all kinds of family relations, there is no word for 'grandfather'. The linguist in me itches to just make one up, since I think that I understood the word structure (even though I don't know what kind of real language it is related to), but on the other hand I am also unsure because of the already mentioned danger of confusion.

Shaddus

So make one up

Munsia

None of you have anything on cowanese. 

Annick

Aerdiya said:

I have a similar problem with crowtongue. 

Aerdiya is a devout follower of Crow and therefore tries to use crowtongue terms as much as possible, but sadly, even though there are translations for almost all kinds of family relations, there is no word for 'grandfather'. The linguist in me itches to just make one up, since I think that I understood the word structure (even though I don't know what kind of real language it is related to), but on the other hand I am also unsure because of the already mentioned danger of confusion.

It's not based on any language... It's all made up