Classflex

Hiriako

Due to a little RP and a desire to test, my ability to classflex was just removed while I was a member of that class. As it stands, I am unable to return to my own class, but still possess the flexed one. Perhaps have revocation of a permission return you to your own class? Though there are skills that wouldn't mesh, and there are issues of flexing back with lesson costs, and then with people abusing that to flex faster than normal... So many oddities. Hmm.

Caerlyr

Seems a little off that a single action can instantly remove potentially over 2500 lessons of investment. I do believe it's already become apparent that some semblance of restraint be exercised in such regards, whether that be individually or mechanically.

Laysus

I'm going to post this here solely because of the above statement.

You tell Greywalker Hiriako Myeras of the Winter Court, "I'm a bit worried, I was supposed to be 

able to speak to you before you were permitted to classflex into the coven. Have you acted on the 

permission Caerlyr granted yet?"

Hiriako tells you, "Nil, were you? I'm very sorry. When he came to me I figured it had been 

discussed. I have, though not to too great a degree. Let us talk, then."

You tell Greywalker Hiriako Myeras of the Winter Court, "Probably best not to right now, this has 

put me in an unpleasant mood to see things we discussed and agreed on in the triumverate being 

ignored."

Hiriako tells you, "Very well, I understand. I'll return to Serenguard for the moment. I suppose I 

should apologize, as Riluna did mention that I should speak to you, but she approached a few days 

later. //I'm here for another hour and change, so if you DO have time and mood before then."

You tell Greywalker Hiriako Myeras of the Winter Court, "Now I'm in the awkward position sense says 

that I should revoke the permission until we have done all that was agreed within the Triumverate, 

but I believe that could be rather harsh for you, having learned some already."

Hiriako tells you, "My friend, at the worst I will have the skills revert to a temporarily forgotten 

state. It will cause me no harm. I am at Ethereal Mother."

Hiriako tells you, "//Plus we can test if it'll immediately drop me out of the class, or cause other 

issues, come to think of it. I'm unable to return to Serenguard on my own at the moment. I just 

tried."

2013/11/18 17:10:42 - Laysus revokes Hiriako's ability to classflex into the Moondancers Guild.

2013/11/18 17:12:02 - Laysus > the above was because we had agreed on the triumverate needing 

unanimous consent on such a matter, and my consent had not yet been given.

1) I'm not a thoughtless dick.

2) Your passive, I think you spilled some aggressive in it. You should watch out for that.

Kagato

I think that the ability to FORGET a classflex should always remain regardless of permission so that one can classflex back into their own guild rather than being trapped in the other guilds class-skills, I had considered suggesting that it forcibly make someone forget the guild skills temporarily, but if it kept the lesson cost, it could be used maliciously against someone, while if it had no cost, it could be abused to circumvent the lesson requirement for classflexing.

Lerad

Yeah, there seems to be some glitches with the system as it is, if Hiriako's experience is true. Even with permission revoked, the classflexer should be able to return to the class he is currently a guilded member of. He should always be able to return to the class he is a guilded member of, classflex or not. This is probably an oversight or bug that should be fixed.

As for the decision making aspect of it, one person being able to take away the permission is perfectly fine if only one person is required to give it. If you want more than one person to give their consent before the permission can be taken away, then there better be the same amount of consent required to give it.

Synkarin

Yeah, I think everyone is aware of the risk of classflexing, so it's up to you to deal with that.

I agree that forgetting skills should be always available, just need permission to activate/, use them

Hiriako

Yes, the experience above is true. I'll note, I'm far from upset about any of this. I just wanted to point out a potential issue here. For abuse, and other concerns! 

Ardmore

I'm upset for you.

Lerad

Oh wait, I just realized. Is Hiriako's problem because he had already used up his classflex for the month (or rather, 300 hours)? So he's not able to classflex back to Serenguard not because it's mechanically disabled, but because it is not yet available to him until the 300 hours tick down?

Hrm, in which case, I have a suggestion.

1) Granting classflex permission to a person when they have the class's primary ability at inept should only be possible if the person being granted permission currently has no general skill that conflicts with the requirements of the classflex. (Ie. a wiccan guild granting permission to someone can only be done to someone who already has lowmagic active, similarly highmagic for a guardian guild etc.)
2) Successfully granting permission automatically switches the target to the granted class skillsets, sans the tert, which can then be activated via skillchoice select either via usual skillflex costs or with the usual costless activation of a new skill. At this point, it will also deactivates (temp forget) any trade skill not compatible with the new class, like alchemy, tinkering, tattooing, forging.
3) Getting this permission will not use up the once-per-300 hours classflex token.

This means that you get a free switch to a class, but only when you're learning it for the first time. You can immediately switch back to another class if you don't like your new class. With the first condition, this free classflex will only be applicable to people who are learning the class for the first time, or for someone who learnt it already, and then permanently forgot the primary skillset (so that it is at inept). In the latter case, they would have bypassed the lesson cost for switching, yes, but then they would have incurred a greater loss from permanently forgetting a skillset.

This is aimed at providing those who are truly getting classflex for the first time a chance to test the waters and see if they like the new skills - if they don't, they can return to their current (or another classflexed class) guild's class without penalty. It also resolves the situation that Hiriako is facing at the moment, since he would have been able to switch back to Serenguard (when the MDs give him permission again eventually, he will have to wait for the 300 hours, of course). It also prevents some of the abuse situations cited above (you can't abuse this to quickly switch classes in combat, because if the free switch kicks in, it means you have to spend time learning the primary skillset up from inept).

This is not a perfect suggestion, of course, since it means that Hiriako will still incur an additional lesson loss when the MDs finally gives him permission again (and he switches back to it again, because getting that permission the second time will no longer give him the free classflex switch).

Hiriako

75 hours, since I have a Doctoral Tam. Sorry! I didn't clarify. The problem is that I can't flex back at the moment. I'm just looking at potential issues.

Shaddus

If only you were a more trustworthy member of your commune, then perhaps Laysus would trust you.

Shaddus

Lerad said:

As for the decision making aspect of it, one person being able to take away the permission is perfectly fine if only one person is required to give it. If you want more than one person to give their consent before the permission can be taken away, then there better be the same amount of consent required to give it.

This. There's absolutely nothing to keep Caerlyr or Riluna from just giving him permission again. If it takes all three to grant permission, it should take all three to remove it, and so on.

Maybe we should grant only a specific guild leader the ability to give classflex to people?

Tacita

Or make it require a majority of leaders (i.e. 2).

Kiradawea

Two or three leaders. Most certainly not one.

Turnus

Two leaders is good. Three is just a pain to coordinate at times.

And it didn't look to me like Hiriako was posting to complain, more to point out a bug.

I would say if you're allowed to classflex to a guild, that gives you the privilege to learn it, but losing privs to classflex doesn't automatically make you revert - it just means once you classflex out you can't switch back - this would mirror how being outguilded works.

Hiriako

That's more what it was, letting people know what would happen, and trying to see if this is handled how we want. Informative post, NOT a complaint.

Raeri

Hrm. It's been a while since classflex has been out, so figured I might ask here rather than new threading - does anyone know if you can be inguilded while classflexed to an alternate guild without having to forget incompatible skills?

Elanorwen

Raeri said:

Hrm. It's been a while since classflex has been out, so figured I might ask here rather than new threading - does anyone know if you can be inguilded while classflexed to an alternate guild without having to forget incompatible skills?

Rather doubt the situation has arisen. I personally think you most likely cannot. Then again, there's also the part where if one guild gave you classflex, you should be able to poke at another rather than changing guilds completely, unless we're talking about different city/commune, in which case it gets a bit trickier.

Elanorwen

Might be a good idea to allow learning of cross-guild skills (As an example, knighthood specs, tarot, runes, etc) from any player that knows the skill rather than having to rely on a guildrank three of the guild in question, especially considering there's five specializations for warriors (as an example) to learn and finding a guild member with a specific one tends to be a pain more often than not.


EDIT: Or even the ability to learn from the guild's tutor... after all, the guild leaders allowed you to classflex into it, it's likely you'll poke at them and ask them for entry rather than trying to sneak in and 'steal' skills.

Steingrim

Elanorwen said:

Might be a good idea to allow learning of cross-guild skills (As an example, knighthood specs, tarot, runes, etc) from any player that knows the skill rather than having to rely on a guildrank three of the guild in question, especially considering there's five specializations for warriors (as an example) to learn and finding a guild member with a specific one tends to be a pain more often than not.


EDIT: Or even the ability to learn from the guild's tutor... after all, the guild leaders allowed you to classflex into it, it's likely you'll poke at them and ask them for entry rather than trying to sneak in and 'steal' skills.

I seen a few people struggle to find anyone who can teach them a rarer tertiary skill. Is there really any reason to protect non-guild specific skills? Does everything need a vote? Just let them learn healing, runes, acro, etc from the NPC tutor.