Divine Symbols and Designs

Shaddus · January 2015

I'll admit that I'm a little spoiled. After having played for a long while in @Isune's order (where she actually went out of her way to send me a letter ic to tell me she didn't have an issue with me ever using her symbols or appearance in designs) and now in @Crumkane's order where I mostly design and cook/brew/host parties, I've lately had a bit of an issue ingame. I'm hoping I can get both mortal and divine feedback as well as personal opinions.

There are a handful of my characters whom I never log into except to design things. Quite frankly, they're cartel holders. One of the things I enjoy doing is designing things for people, and especially divine. The latter is often not for any sense of rp, just a general idea that they or their order might like these things, or just because inspiration struck me.

The issue I have is that often times, such designs are returned and I'm urged to contact the divine ICLY to ask their permission. For instance, Entrias designed a tapestry depicting Viravain back before the Elder Wars. It was both tasteful and attractive, I felt. However, Entrias was urged to contact her to ask her approval. The problem is that not only does Entrias have no interest in rp'ing with Viravain (no offense to her), but he's definitely not interested in what may come of it, be it her requiring a task for him to submit it, or an owed favor. He/I just want to design things. Am I out of line for this?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that the divine don't want their symbols used without their permission. That's common sense. I just feel that there's a difference between making "a ring of Fain's High Priest", which may imply that this is an order-owned or attached item, and making a tapestry which may have his symbol or likeness in it.

Thoughts? Feedback?

Lavinya · January 2015

I was wondering about this too. For example, Tremula has made some pro Drocilla tapestries that also are negative towards Lisaera. They are pretty awesome, but could easily have been banned before ever being approved, if Lisaera had objected.

I think it's a great avenue of roleplay for designs to be used as a form of propaganda. If I wanted to make a tapestry ragging on Terentia (whom according to godfeelings is the great enemy of my god) I would certainly expect Terentia to want to kill me for making it, and put Her order to destroying any copy of it they found...but to not be able to be designed at all would be disappointing! Knowing it could be highly contraversial is awesome, but for that to happen, said thing needs to be allowed to exist.

I understand gods wanting to look in on any designs before they are made to ensure their symbols are described properly or even to just generally know what's going on, but what is the justification for flatly disallowing the designs to be approved? I'm very curious to know divine thoughts/views on this topic and how they deal with it.

Crumkane · January 2015

Speaking to this from the perspective of a divine (and one who allows usage of His symbol) and as someone who (when I was a player) designed many things, I feel like I have something to add to this.

While Crumkane, the character, has no reason to stop people from expressing their creativity (it's what He does, after all), Darvellan, the character, may have a reason to stop someone from using His symbols. I am not sure what the reason is, but in the case of others, it can often times be secrecy, or a desire to keep Their symbol more "exclusive" to Their Order, city, etc.

The best thing to do (in all cases, whether you don't want to interact with them or not), is to send a prayer to the divine and explain what you wish to design and why. Best case scenario, they say yes. Worst case, they say no, and you move on to design something else. For all anyone knows, Darvellan may require people to stand on one foot, spin in a circle three times, and then recite the Celestian National Anthem before He will approve usage of His symbol, but that is His right to do so.

If you are given some task you don't want to do, don't do it, but don't expect to have your design approved. My best advice, in the case of rejection or some absurd task to gain approval is to just push it to the side for now and work on something else. While frustrating, you have to understand that there is more to it than them just wanting to stifle your creativity.

Edit: While I know the rule can be frustrating, and not always common sense or realistic, it's a rule nonetheless. Sometimes it is more fun to find creative ways to get around having your design rejected than to just give up on it, anyway. Some of the best propaganda is subtle.

Shaddus · January 2015

《If I wanted to make a tapestry ragging on Terentia (whom according to godfeelings is the great enemy of my god) I would certainly expect Terentia to want to kill me for making it, and put Her order to destroying any copy of it they found...but to not be able to be designed at all would be disappointing!》

Precisely my point. I feel that a divine denying your design on what really amounts to an OOC level until you chat them up IC is a bit stifling. If the item in question is horribly bad (like a tapestry of the naked Eventru/Lyreth painting that Pectus spread about), I can see a divine shutting that down.

Drocilla · January 2015

I actually make @Tremula grovel before my shrine with a design, which I then don't even read and just tear up into pieces and throw, aflame, into her face. I then make her write a new one with her foot while a bunch of... Well no, not really. Generally, only my Order designs Drocilla-themed things while non-members have all first mailed requests for permission without any prompting on my part. If a random person was using my symbol/likeness without permission, the response would depend on the design's tone and quality, and who/where they are.

Ayisdra · January 2015

Is there some master list that the charites give out to reviews of all the gods symbols then, including ones use that are not listed in the god's help file? Surely I could design something like 'a blood soaked rose' without ever knowing it is a symbol of Viravain's order. On this, the gods with everyday objects as their symbols, that are not listed in their help files, would these type of things be subject to the rule as well?

Crumkane · January 2015

I'm pretty sure (but I could possibly me missing one or two) that all Divine symbols requiring approval are in the respective HELP file for that Divine.

Edit: Poor wording, I meant all symbols are in the HELP files. I don't know of any beyond these that we would require approval or denial from a Divine for.

Shaddus · January 2015

Crumkane said:
Long Quote

Well, right. I don't generally disagree with this, but when HELP (INSERT GOD HERE) literally mentions their symbol, it's not precisely a secret. Any Tom, Dick, and Harry could walk around drawing six-spoked helms, cornucopias, or half-eaten snowballs in the mud.

For all Darvellan knows, my character is forming a cult to Him in my manse, and it's a surprise :P

Isune · January 2015

Ayisdra said:
Is there some master list that the charites give out to reviews of all the gods symbols then, including ones use that are not listed in the god's help file? Surely I could design something like 'a blood soaked rose' without ever knowing it is a symbol of Viravain's order. On this, the gods with everyday objects as their symbols, that are not listed in their help files, would these type of things be subject to the rule as well?

Yes. However for the most part you'll find the ones in the god's help file are the ones most pertinent, as well as the use of a god's Divine visage.

For the most part, it's good to ask the Divine for their policy before attempting. I cannot emphasize enough how useful communication between the two parties is. It removes room for misunderstanding. Generally speaking we are pretty flexible!

(though I will always be sad that the sexual Predator tattoo never made it out the gate, RIP)

Shaddus · January 2015

Crumkane said:
I'm pretty sure (but I could possibly me missing one or two) that all Divine symbols requiring approval are in the respective HELP file for that Divine.

Maybe I could talk the divine into making a master list of active gods and exactly what they require when an outsider designs with them in mind. :x

Enyalida · January 2015

The divine's right to veto designs with their depiction should be executed with their admin hat on, not with their god hat. It makes a lot of sense for the administrator to be able to restrict inappropriate depictions of their personas, just as it makes sense for there to be a review process in general.

It also makes sense as an IC construct that without some form of tacit approval, a design will be dangerous to make, and therefore an upfront 'this is not okay' is cool, to prevent wasted time (beyond time already wasted designing something, submitting it, and getting it rejected) On the other hand, @Shaddus is right. Beyond the grossest offenses, why should Entrias care to talk IC to an enemy god, when that god has no reason to agree to negative (IC) depictions of themselves? It forces a connection between an admin's OOC veto power and IC god persona, blech. There are limits on how much a god can zap someone, both OOC (from Esty) and presumably IC, as that person's own gods would protect them. Why do we need to grovel before foreign gods to have a picture of them being defeated by our own glorious pantheon?

This isn't the only place this happens (Patronship is another big sticking point for me on this type of subject), but I still don't really like it.

Shaddus · January 2015

Isune said:

(though I will always be sad that the sexual Predator tattoo never made it out the gate, RIP)

Show or get out :P

Daraius · January 2015

The rationale behind the rule hasn't been explained well enough, I think. Do we need to ask permission to blaspheme?

Isune · January 2015

Messaging a god about this OOC is perfectly acceptable. (That is also the case for patron requests.)

Enyalida · January 2015

Perhaps patron requests needs it's own thread, like the one started over on the Achaea forums.

I've been told by gods that they were not interested in patroning x org for OOC reasons (no other active choices) unless they got something out of it IC. Don't get me wrong, I 100% understand the impetus driving that kind of statement, and absolutely appreciate it being said explicitly at the outset instead of agreeing to patron and nothing coming of it. I just think its a pity that OOC necessities and IC roles are muddied that way, due to the design of the system.

EDIT: Also, if handling design permission is okay to do OOC, why not just make it part of the design process? Gods get automatically flagged when a design depicting them goes through, and have to yes/no it. Comments can be included by the designer explaining intent (they can even flag it themselves, to get it done more quickly, so that reviewers don't need to flag it) if they have some case to be made to the god. This can go along with messages, if need be. Surely that's better than just offhandedly discarding all designs with an iron rule.

Crumkane · January 2015

I don't know what exactly went down with what led to this, but often times just messaging a divine letting them know about the design will be more than enough. Most will not deny a design unless it's not done tastefully, and if they do, it could just be that they knew nothing about it and would just like a heads up. Communication is a great tool, and I am sure any and all Admin would appreciate being told, whether they require approval or not.

Crumkane · January 2015

EDIT: Also, if handling design permission is okay to do OOC, why not just make it part of the design process? Gods get automatically flagged when a design depicting them goes through, and have to yes/no it. Comments can be included by the designer explaining intent (they can even flag it themselves, to get it done more quickly, so that reviewers don't need to flag it) if they have some case to be made to the god. This can go along with messages, if need be. Surely that's better than just offhandedly discarding all designs with an iron rule.

That's exactly what happens. Reviewers flag designs and then the Charites review these flags and approach the Divine in question to okay it. Nobody is flat out rejected (most divine have automatic approval, actually, and flags aren't even required.)

Enyalida · January 2015

Shaddus said:

The issue I have is that often times, such designs are returned and I'm urged to contact the divine ICLY to ask their permission. For instance, Entrias designed a tapestry depicting Viravain back before the Elder Wars. It was both tasteful and attractive, I felt. However, Entrias was urged to contact her to ask her approval.

Presumably this is what went down to spark the thread. He was told to contact the god IC for approval, counter to what you said. This easily could be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right (or the head) is doing, though.

Lavinya · January 2015

Sooooooo...if we want to make designs depicting divine symbols or visages of those whom it makes no sense to ask ICly, we're best to open up an ooc dialogue via message?

I have no problem asking IC to make designs honouring divine, like I asked Drocilla before designing anything relating to Her and She gave me a nifty bit of RP to go with it about how She prefers to be represented. (Bonus!)

I would have a problem asking Terentia IC for Her permission to design a tapestry depicting Her being devoured by Morgfyre, because a) my character never would deign to ask Her permission in the first place and b) I sincerely doubt in an IC manner it would be given.

BUT - if I approached Her oocly and explained, there may be a chance She lets me go ahead with it, but She still reserves the right to tell me to get lost.

Is the above pretty much accurate of how we should approach such things? (And I really hope the divine are great sports like Lisaera obviously is about that tapestry and allow room for the occasional negative design to come to fruition!)

Lavinya · January 2015

ALSO - For inactive divine, can it be presumed it's ok, or should such a design just be flagged no mortal review with the disclaimer in the comments that the divine has proved uncontactable?

Shaddus · January 2015

Enyalida said:

Shaddus said:

The issue I have is that often times, such designs are returned and I'm urged to contact the divine ICLY to ask their permission. For instance, Entrias designed a tapestry depicting Viravain back before the Elder Wars. It was both tasteful and attractive, I felt. However, Entrias was urged to contact her to ask her approval.

Presumably this is what went down to spark the thread. He was told to contact the god IC for approval, counter to what you said. This easily could be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right (or the head) is doing, though.

It's not technically what led to the post, just something like it that happened. I'd already contacted the divine ICLY and asked permission. Whether that Divine accepts or turns it down is up to them, but I'm just leery about pulling semi-inactive characters out of their hiding hole to rp with a divine they technically have never met, or are interested in meeting (for now), simply because I the player have a yen for designing things with a divine inspired motif.

Isune · January 2015

Enyalida said:

Shaddus said:

The issue I have is that often times, such designs are returned and I'm urged to contact the divine ICLY to ask their permission. For instance, Entrias designed a tapestry depicting Viravain back before the Elder Wars. It was both tasteful and attractive, I felt. However, Entrias was urged to contact her to ask her approval.

Presumably this is what went down to spark the thread. He was told to contact the god IC for approval, counter to what you said. This easily could be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right (or the head) is doing, though.

As to the incident in question, @Entrias can speak with @Viravain in a message about the design if he likes. The ruling here was meant to imply Viravain should be contacted if Entrias wished to proceed with the design, as at the time, She was against being depicted in that manner. This could be done in a message or by prayer (and if the initial response implied a prayer was the only proper response, then it was a miscommunication).

Isune · January 2015

Lavinya said:
ALSO - For inactive divine, can it be presumed it's ok, or should such a design just be flagged no mortal review with the disclaimer in the comments that the divine has proved uncontactable?

For the most part this is understood and the Charites employ their best judgment on if the design is tasteful and appropriate. Several Isune designs were accepted while Isune was an inactive character, for example.

Shaddus · January 2015

That's where I had a problem, though. Icly, not only did Viravain not know I was designing a tapestry depicting her, She's never (to my knowledge) interacted with me.

Oocly, I didn't feel she should have turned the design down unless she felt it was blatantly tacky or distasteful, or broke a rule. This may just have been my opinion, of course.

Given that the tapestry was inspired by IC visions given by an IC object (Inedra), it seems to me that such a depiction of Viravain pre-wyrd were observations done by another goddess IC, in the past. If Viravain had discovered the tapestry ICly and wanted to rp/punish Entrias, I'd have jump on that in a heartbeat. But when it comes down to it, I don't personally feel that Viravain oocly had a reason to refuse it. If I'm wrong and it's deemed unacceptable, I'll accept that.

I guess I'll post it when I get home for opinions.

Isune · January 2015

Lavinya said:
Sooooooo...if we want to make designs depicting divine symbols or visages of those whom it makes no sense to ask ICly, we're best to open up an ooc dialogue via message?

I have no problem asking IC to make designs honouring divine, like I asked Drocilla before designing anything relating to Her and She gave me a nifty bit of RP to go with it about how She prefers to be represented. (Bonus!)

I would have a problem asking Terentia IC for Her permission to design a tapestry depicting Her being devoured by Morgfyre, because a) my character never would deign to ask Her permission in the first place and b) I sincerely doubt in an IC manner it would be given.

BUT - if I approached Her oocly and explained, there may be a chance She lets me go ahead with it, but She still reserves the right to tell me to get lost.

Is the above pretty much accurate of how we should approach such things? (And I really hope the divine are great sports like Lisaera obviously is about that tapestry and allow room for the occasional negative design to come to fruition!)

This is a safe way to approach things. It's possible to submit the design without asking the Divine first, but asking saves you a round of design rejection in the event you accidentally misstep.

(Remember again that messages are OOC and using them means you are asking the admin what their stance is, not the character. If you get the go-ahead for 'a tapestry of Mysrai and Jadice smooching' the gods may still react unpleasantly ICly!)

Elanorwen · January 2015

Isune said:

This is a safe way to approach things. It's possible to submit the design without asking the Divine first, but asking saves you a round of design rejection in the event you accidentally misstep. (Remember again that messages are OOC and using them means you are asking the admin what their stance is, not the character. If you get the go-ahead for 'a tapestry of Mysrai and Jadice smooching' the gods may still react unpleasantly ICly!)

Let the fan-fic writing commence.

Shaddus · January 2015

This is the tapestry I've been talking about, and the response. I'm certainly open to opinions on the design itself >.>

Item: Tapestry Type: Tapestries Org: Public Designer: Entrias
Commodities: silk 150 bluetint 25 yellowtint 25 greentint 25 redtint 25
Mortal Reviews: Allowed
Space: 25% Furniture Type: Wall Furnishings
Outdoors: No Container: No Can Have Lock: No
IMPORTANT: The main noun MUST use one of these: TAPESTRY
Appearance:
a sun-hued tapestry of the Summer Song
Dropped:
An aureate tapestry hangs prominently here, depicting the Lady of the Summer Song in Her full glory.
Examined:
Sitting cross-legged and serene, Viravain of the Seventh sits under a
towering tree as bluebirds and butterflies crowd about Her, seeking
attention. Silken blonde hair spreads out around Her form, the flowers
of the forest floor interweaving with Her locks. Verdant eyes twinkle in
glee as She examines Her creations, an upheld finger bearing a small
black raven atop it. In ornate script along the bottom of the tapestry
are the words, "All it takes is a little Compassion."
Comments:
The Charites have returned your proposed design for further revisions. See DESIGN LIST <cartel>. The
following comments were made regarding the design:
We regret to inform you that Viravain does not approve of Her visage being displayed in this manner.
If you wish to receive Her approval for it, please contact Her requesting what that would entail.
Thank you.

Tremula · January 2015

If I might step in? When I started my mini-war against @Lisaera and the Triumvirate in my designs, I knew straight out that I was going to get a lot of grief IC. I expected the zaps, maggoting, deaths, and everything else that would come with it (though I forgot true disfavours were a thing and was mortified when I yawned talking about Drocilla stuff. [She's always watching!]). Still, though, before I even thought to attempt and do something about it ICly, I talked through with @Pectus and @Iosen out of game, and they warned me there could be negative consequences.

Before I continued, I messaged @Drocilla here on the forums, and asked Her about mechanics versus RP (and if it's all right with her, I'd love to copy+paste my question and her answer, because it was really well written). After I had talked it out with everyone but Lisaera, I wanted to keep it a surprise for Her, I sent it in and waited.

For a while it went without notice, and I assumed it would get lost in the "getting ready for Ascension" buzz I could feel happening in the Divine. I mean, it was close to the end of the year, and those mushtrees were a clear threat. Suddenly, though, while looking through sorcelglass designs in the aetherplex I get in game interaction with Her that came with a warning not to make the design, and that She would personally gut me and toss my innards to the wolves (or something similar) if She saw it made and thrown about. I probably made it worse by mouthing off, but still.

A few days later, BAM, it was accepted and placed in the public designs like I wanted. This way, it wouldn't just be one instance of blasphemy against Her by Tremula that could be forgotten about. If someone had a grudge against Her, they could look at the tapestry designs, see that there's one with Her greatest enemy standing over Her dead body, and have it crafted in their manse, in their favourite place, etc. Now of course, they'd have to face Her follower's wrath in-game for it...I'd probably get a disfavour because I made it in the first place, too. Still, that ends up being their choice in the matter.

Most Divine seem to be pretty okay about their usage in things as long as it's not terribly lewd. In the case the Divine in question is inactive or you can't justify ICly having something made? There is a way around by describing Them without using Their name or symbols (I have a Viravain tapestry in my manse that I made and that I'm quite proud of) explicitly. It could be Jadice sitting there losing a pastry-eating contest to Daraius, or it could be some very stern-looking lucidian woman with a miniature hurricane of snowflakes around her attempting to cheat a loboshigaru out of his obviously deserved victory.

Positive things may seem positive to us, but every Divine has their own way about them. While I look forward to the interaction with Mysrai and Jadice when my next two tapestries are finished, I doubt that even the strength of my blasphemy will be enough to wake Hoaracle. I don't quite know how it will end up there, but I assume some other Divine steps in and looks it over to make sure they're not misrepresented.

Long story with no actual purpose other than me delaying writing things that I need to write for Lusternia and otherwise, I'm agreeing with what all the Divine have said and adding a little backstory to my process for doing what I did. Please make me go do things I'm supposed to do.

Lisaera · January 2015

I enjoyed the interactions with @Tremula throughout her design debauchery. It was a neat way to remind people that the character Lisaera isn't above aesthetic pettiness (she can sometimes come off as "above it all," and as we're flawed deities, that isn't good - and is hard to maintain). It was also fun to see Magnagora's response to my choice of divine retribution: I maggoted her for a while, gave her my disfavour, and ended up cursing her with a nasty divine hex that makes her praise me wildly for however long I wish.

Some people in Magnagora lauded her brazen artistry, while others were rightfully distant, for fear of stoking the fire. I didn't immediately say yes to the design, either. It took me a solid few days of weighing my options before I finally decided that the negative ramifications of such a thing wouldn't really matter in the long run, and I'd still have the opportunity to loom threateningly over the sorry mortals who dared to stitch together such a heinous thing.

The design was clearly propaganda, which fits the "war" that rages between Lisaera and @Drocilla. If the design were something else, though, like Lisaera doing something decidedly against her character (serving Fain tea, torturing fae, or whatever), then that would have taken much more deliberation on my part.

Elanorwen · January 2015

To actually contribute to the design discussion. A Divine wanting to hunt down and destroy every copy of your work that besmirches their name doesn't require any form of exertion. They just have to say "Make it so" and it magically happens. You're forgetting one important trait of a God/dess - They are omnipotent/scient. Now, while that is impossible to actually accomplish in a real world, the RP way to go about your design being rejected is... "That blasted @Viravain realized what I was creating and erased it from existence, along with any memory of its actual design from my head"

Other Divines do choose to handle matters differently, but that is not because they are unable to just snap their fingers and destroy your creation, it's because they have a different way of solving problems.

Enyalida · January 2015

Uh, Lusternian Divine are decidedly not omni-anything (except perhaps @Mysrai, in one particular way).

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