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Vernal/Soulless curio discrepancy.
I'm sure most of those who care have discovered the gulf between how easy it is to acquire Vernal Curio Pieces and Soulless Curio Pieces, but for those who aren't aware, these are the quests that provide curio pieces.
SOULLESS CURIO COLLECTION
o Raising the Eye of Zenos (Climanti Past)
o Completing Project Soulforge
o Opening Djarrakh
o Empowering the Slaghora'ruin (Tarpits)
o Dominating the Kephera Hives
o Raising the Avatar of the Dark Empress
o Summoning the shadow of Crazen
o Aiding the Goloth
o Slaying the Devourer of Destiny
VERNAL CURIO COLLECTION
o Activating Spire of Dionamus
o Destroy the Eye of Zenos (Climanti Past)
o Chancel of Clangoran Mysteries
o Crowning Ethilwin or Thoril
o Mirror of Tzaraziko
o Hand of Tzaraziko
o Urlach Catacombs Quest
o Closing Djarrakh
o Destroying Soulforge
o Kiakoda Nature Reserve Quest
o Defeating the Goloth
Numberwise, there are far more vernal quests to do. That in itself is not a great problem as the quests that hand out curio pieces should make sense thematically, and simply designing a few new quests isn't done with a snap of the finger. There is a problem that should be attended though. That is how much easier it is to generate vernal curio pieces than it is to generate soulless curio pieces. Vernal curios boost divinus damage and resists excorable, while the soulless curios do the opposite. As these damage types are deeply tied to certain orgs, it means that some orgs have a distinct disadvantage.
My proposal, which has some precedent in the Icewynd Curios, is that in the quests that have very clear subgoals, you introduce getting an additional piece of curio, rather than the only one you get at the end of the quest. Examplewise, for every keystone you return either to Ciarrus or to its spot in Djarrakh, you are given a curio piece. For every subquest solved after getting the device in Kryden Valik, you get a curio piece, and for every pedestal you corrupt for the illithoid, you get a curio piece.
Vernal pieces are still going to be easier to get than Soulless pieces, even if this is put in place, but it will make the discrepancy smaller.
SOULLESS CURIO COLLECTION
o Raising the Eye of Zenos (Climanti Past)
o Completing Project Soulforge
o Opening Djarrakh
o Empowering the Slaghora'ruin (Tarpits)
o Dominating the Kephera Hives
o Raising the Avatar of the Dark Empress
o Summoning the shadow of Crazen
o Aiding the Goloth
o Slaying the Devourer of Destiny
VERNAL CURIO COLLECTION
o Activating Spire of Dionamus
o Destroy the Eye of Zenos (Climanti Past)
o Chancel of Clangoran Mysteries
o Crowning Ethilwin or Thoril
o Mirror of Tzaraziko
o Hand of Tzaraziko
o Urlach Catacombs Quest
o Closing Djarrakh
o Destroying Soulforge
o Kiakoda Nature Reserve Quest
o Defeating the Goloth
Numberwise, there are far more vernal quests to do. That in itself is not a great problem as the quests that hand out curio pieces should make sense thematically, and simply designing a few new quests isn't done with a snap of the finger. There is a problem that should be attended though. That is how much easier it is to generate vernal curio pieces than it is to generate soulless curio pieces. Vernal curios boost divinus damage and resists excorable, while the soulless curios do the opposite. As these damage types are deeply tied to certain orgs, it means that some orgs have a distinct disadvantage.
My proposal, which has some precedent in the Icewynd Curios, is that in the quests that have very clear subgoals, you introduce getting an additional piece of curio, rather than the only one you get at the end of the quest. Examplewise, for every keystone you return either to Ciarrus or to its spot in Djarrakh, you are given a curio piece. For every subquest solved after getting the device in Kryden Valik, you get a curio piece, and for every pedestal you corrupt for the illithoid, you get a curio piece.
Vernal pieces are still going to be easier to get than Soulless pieces, even if this is put in place, but it will make the discrepancy smaller.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
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(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
Would it be possible to make the Urlach and Tzaraziko related quests have a chance to give out a soulless curio? Or put some sort of end choice in that allows the person to choose between the two?
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I'd say something like a piece per hour's work is fair, I'd want them to be an achievement, not as quick as the Waystations.
o Activating Spire of Dionamus (Life)
o Destroy the Eye of Zenos (Climanti Past) (Justice)
o Chancel of Clangoran Mysteries (War)
o Crowning Ethilwin or Thoril (War)
o Mirror of Tzaraziko (Chaos)
o Hand of Tzaraziko (Chaos)
o Urlach Catacombs Quest (Death)
o Closing Djarrakh (Harmony)
o Kiakoda Nature Reserve Quest (Nature)
Knowledge and Beauty being the ones not represented.
By comparison, you can get 1 vernal an hour from the catacombs alone.
Getting a piece for subquests would actually make them easier to spam than the Vernals, because the only one that can really be done in bulk is the Catacombs. The mirror is close, but you have to clear the mobs to reset it. The others all suffer from the same reset woes as the Soulless quests (or the difficulty). I do the whole Kryden Valik quest in under an hour which would be 4 pieces, plus another when each subquest resets, so I just can't see them going for that.
Less easy; a quest to corrupt the Seals for the Catacombs, which would allow the same once-per-hour generation.
You can get one from the mirror every two to three hours, and one from Kryden every seven. Getting four pieces from Kryden would outstrip it.
The truly spammable (and easiest) vernal is the catacombs. One piece per hour for five minutes (if that) of work.
The reason you are having so much trouble with Kryden is that it is one quest with a long reset that multiple want to do. And some of them are clearly obsessed with curios.
I'll agree that the mirror is easy, but Kryden is hardly any tougher; it just takes a little longer.
My reset on Albert was something like 12 hours, it was incredibly annoying. I would solve it, go to bed, wake up and he still wouldn't talk to me. This is why I do not see the reserve as in any way surpassing Kryden.
I never tried alternating the mirror quest. It probably would work, though. m. Still, speeding up Kryden's reset would help with that nicely.
The best solution is more Soulless quests that can be done semi-reasonably without a long reset, but they take a while to implement. Speeding up Kryden is a good start! The reason I have not made a post on this yet myself is because I am anticipating at least one more as part of the End Of The World event, and I'd like to see how it goes.
Also, if anything, my post is clearly trolling myself.
It's not like the soulless curios were made by the soulless.
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I really don't think we're going to hack reset times by 86%, though, on certain quests, just so you can get moar soulless curioz.
They aren't intended to be 'easy' to collect, but to take time and effort (much like the pilgrim achievements etc). They're deliberately targeting a specific gamer personality type, people who feel the need to complete difficult tasks for the sake of bragging rights and some prize.
And what about those wanting Soulless 'junk'? I may not be one of them, but I can see they have a disadvantage at present.
Just look at the rate of Ikon generation for, say, the villages versus the Cities / Communes. You get a whole ikon for doing a village quest. You get points towards an ikon for doing an org-quest.
Same with the elementals that you can get for doing things like the mirror quest; you get a whole ikon for completion.
Trying to generate org-ikons is just a long and tedious process, and making this curio collection stuff even longer and more tedious than it already is would be pretty mean.
I don't think the solution is making Soulless curio quests reset quicker nor making the easiest/least offensive Soulless quest spawn four or five per round and drop the reset time from 7 hours to 1, though, either!
I also argued against making that quest spawn multiple pieces-per-round.
In fact, looking at it, the only quest I suggested be given a "1 hour reset" was "if there could be a Soulless-side to the Catacombs" which I even referred to as a "less easy option". New quests are inherently so.
While I didn't suggest a reset time for Kryden Valik, I'm not really seeing where you'd get the impression I want it to be a 1-hour-reset. I was thinking more along the lines of 4 hours, because as I said I am anticipating other quest(s) being implemented that would also help fill the gap.
I'd say that setting Kryden to a 1-hour reset is not just highly unlikely, but just Not Going To Happen. I don't usually suggest things that silly! :P A 4-hour reset seems reasonable to me, but I'm waiting until all the year-end stuff settles down before I really get into assessing the disparity between the two types (as noted earlier).
Personally, I feel that "difficult to collect" should not be "all but impossible", and that generating either vernal and soulless curio pieces (much less successfully forming either curio in its entirety) are simply ridiculous and unreasonable for the average player. This isn't on the level of the old ascendant special snowflake stuff. We at least have more than 10 ascendants in the game, active or not. I'd not be surprised if Xenthos is the only one with a completed vernal curio.
But I digress. That's not the point of this thread, and I'm not looking to start a discussion about that. We can all take Eventru's word that the current rate of generating vernal curio pieces is reasonable (lol). The problem that soulless curio pieces are more difficult both in the number of quests and the difficulty of the quests, however, remains a glaring point that has not been proven false yet. I believe the suggestion to make soulless curio piece generation easier is more than reasonable.
My post should have implied not that I thought Vernal rates were reasonable, but that I think they may be too plentiful. Maybe the problem isn't "soulless are too rare because they can't be farmed like the Catacombs quest", but rather "the Catacombs quest shouldn't be spitting out curios so quickly".
Thus my thought for a "point" accumulation system akin to getting ikons, in that some quests (that are very easy and "farmable") would be toned down so it would require repeated completions to get the curio (2 or 3, in the case of Urlach, which seems the only farmable one AFAIK).
I readily dismiss "only one person has completed a Vernal set" as an argument, particularly when we're only a few months in and that person is Xenthos, who got most if not all of them by farming an event quest and trading.
They're not meant to be easy, nor common.
Beyond that, all I'm offering is my opinion based off of conversations when we were making and setting them up.
I spent that entire time spam-hammering the quests as well. I did Kiakoda every time it reset and allowed me. I did Catacombs every hour, religiously. I did the Mirror every 3 hours, killing the mirror mobs every time they respawned and re-doing the quest when the quest-NPC respawned.
Sure I spent a lot of time trading and getting pieces from others, but I'd say I generated more pieces by questing than from the event itself, and I'd thank you not to put down / summarily dismiss my efforts out of hand.
I specifically, explicitly stated that it was a digression too.
Of course, I made a mistake assuming what Eventru meant, but okay. So he meant that Vernal curio pieces are too easy to get and should be just as difficult as the current Soulless curio pieces to get. I stand corrected for making a factual mistake with an early assumption. I fail to see where I "mocked" anyone. I certainly mocked Eventru's argument, because I felt it was ridiculous. I was doing my very best to attack the argument, but I certainly did not attack the arguer. This is a forum, and if I feel your opinion is wrong, I'm going to say it. Where possible, I also back up my claims with data or logic. Where not possible, I make it clear it is a personal opinion. If you feel my opinion is wrong, obviously you are perfectly entitled to do the same. To claim that you are mocked and then to "leave a last word" to end the discussion is rather counter-productive to the purpose of the forums: which is to seek solutions via dialogue. Especially when you are posting and speaking from the position of a game administrator. I've said this before elsewhere, and I'll say it again, now and in the future, as many times as it needs to be said. Shying away from disagreements is not going to improve anything. Disagreements form the basis of discussion and compromise, and the forums are the place to air such disagreements and subsequent discussions. Civility is required, but being civil is not the same as being friendly, and I believe I was not out of line - I'm not going to whitewash my disagreements with anybody just to sound like I am a friend.
I also still do not see my point being refuted - whether or not the rate of getting vernal curio pieces is too easy or not, the disparity between getting soulless curio pieces and vernal curio pieces remain. Kiradawea's statement that due to the divinus and excorable benefits afforded by those curios, the disparity should be addressed also remains valid. Of course, at the current generation rates, we'll only be likely to see an impact when years have passed. The impact, however, will theoretically be there, and resolving the disparity when the problem has surfaced will possibly take a great deal more work and time than if a solution is to be implemented now. The logical solution if we take Eventru's arguments to be correct will be to make vernal curio pieces harder to generate than they are at the moment. If after all the discussion on the matter, the admin agree with Eventru, then sure, that works as a solution. This may not be a solution that Kiradawea originally envisioned, or one that Xenthos agrees with, but if after all they have said on the matter have failed to convince the admin, then so be it.
The suggestion for Kryden was just that, a suggestion. And as shown, at a 1 hour completion time and 7 hour reset, that even with four curios per completion, it breaks even with the mirror when focused upon, and produces less total curios per hour than the Catacombs and Reserve. (The reserve can't be completed every hour by the same person, but it resets about once an hour for other people to complete it, and it's easy enough to complete, even an alt fresh out of the portal could do it.)
So... yeah.