Skill Previewing

edited August 2013 in Ideas
As it stands, almost every one of the IRE games allows a player see the full list and description of all skills in the game, whether they have them or not. For example, a simple priest could see the AB of Necromancy and review the abilities there in. I was wondering if we could perhaps bring this little setup to lusternia as well in order to make skills more understandable by other players, especially newcomers. This will also solve the problem of seeing what abilities one will gain as they further learn in the skill

Must haves:

Allow one to see all abilities in their skills, either by doing a syntax of AB <skillname> FULL (or some such) or by simply highlighting the abilities they have learned in the skill so far, and the ones they have not to be in some grey faded text or some such (Players from aetolia or imperian would mostly understand this concept).

In each HELP <skill> scroll, place the wiki site below as a reference to all of lusternia's skills.

Other suggestions:

- Allow players to do AB <skill> <ability> to any ability in the game, whether they have the ability or not.

- Allow players to see the list of all abilities in any skill by AB <skill> FULL


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Comments

  • If possible, also expand the AB files with what % in a rank the skill is at, and maybe even when previewing a skill see how many lessons you are away from from it. Would make skill planning for novices a lot easier. I realise that there are wiki projects who cover this now but they need to be kept up to date. Plus, it is easy to make an error in a manual calculation and this can mean ending up spending lessons in the wrong place.
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  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spot
    I would love, love, love this feature.
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    edited August 2013
    Fourthed.  While I could code something on my end to figure this out (and, come to think of it, think I just found a quick little project to work on) it would be nice for it to be implemented via the engine itself.  Anyone know how up to date that Xiel site is for skills?
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  • Tarkenton said:
    Fourthed.  While I could code something on my end to figure this out (and, come to think of it, think I just found a quick little project to work on) it would be nice for it to be implemented via the engine itself.  Anyone know how up to date that Xiel site is for skills?
    Incredibly.
  • LavinyaLavinya Queen of Snark Australia
    There are some errors though in what % each skill is learned at it, mostly because new skills have been added in and if you have already learned past it, there is literally no way to know where it is - it's just guess work. Why do we have to guess how many lessons needed to attain our skills? Why do we have to guess (or scour wikis) to even know what our future skills are going to be? There is no reason this information can't be included in the game (at present neither are except for the skills you have learned). This would be such an awesome ease of (game)life addition!



  • We've discusses this before, but I recall one of the coders saying that it would require a complete rewrite of how learning/ABs currently work and as such isn't a simple or easily done project. At least, in this regard, we have the wiki and Xiel's site, both of which are extremely helpful. Thanks to those people who put that information together!

  • edited August 2013
    Zvoltz said:
    We've discusses this before, but I recall one of the coders saying that it would require a complete rewrite of how learning/ABs currently work and as such isn't a simple or easily done project. At least, in this regard, we have the wiki and Xiel's site, both of which are extremely helpful. Thanks to those people who put that information together!
    hmm I can understand the showing of other abilities in skills as a problem that would require a complete rewrite, but the showing of the full ability list in a skill would also (This being the idea of highlighting the abilities learned and the ones yet to be learnt remaining in a faded grey)? Also for reference sake, how about placing the link to the Wiki on each HELP scroll for curious/confused newcommers :).
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spot
    Would it be a reasonable middle ground to include the information in the in-game HELP <skill> files? Or, to avoid blowing up certain files too much (e.g. HELP BEASTMASTERY), maybe a HELP AB<skill>?

    For instance, HELP ABAEROMANCY would bring up the information here, formatted pretty much in this way: http://wiki.lusternia.com/Aeromancy. The information's all available in-game, just needs to be cobbled together and made available to everyone. :)

    And if that isn't an option, there should be some in-game reference to the wiki if there isn't already. 
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    Daraius said:
    HELP ABAEROMANCY
    Obviously you meant ABEAROMANCY or BEAROMANCY, either way, I want.
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • BEAR-ROMANCY, because taedae need more love.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Arcanis said:


    Zvoltz said:

    We've discusses this before, but I recall one of the coders saying that it would require a complete rewrite of how learning/ABs currently work and as such isn't a simple or easily done project. At least, in this regard, we have the wiki and Xiel's site, both of which are extremely helpful. Thanks to those people who put that information together!

    hmm I can understand the showing of other abilities in skills as a problem that would require a complete rewrite, but the showing of the full ability list in a skill would also (This being the idea of highlighting the abilities learned and the ones yet to be learnt remaining in a faded grey)? Also for reference sake, how about placing the link to the Wiki on each HELP scroll for curious/confused newcommers :).


    Skills are not really written in a way to make dealing with them easy. Throughout Lusternia's history there have been many instances of AB being flat wrong; it listed skills in a different order than they were actually learned. There is no real tie between them- so to even have something that can parse what you know to do and display the rest of it with an indicative flag is (so we are told) prohibitively problematic.
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  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    The one thing I'd like to see is being able to ASK <tutor> <skill> and get how far away from next rank one is even while under favours. I mean, it's not like the code doesn't know just how many points the favour gives to each skillset.
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  • Zvoltz said:
    We've discusses this before, but I recall one of the coders saying that it would require a complete rewrite of how learning/ABs currently work and as such isn't a simple or easily done project. At least, in this regard, we have the wiki and Xiel's site, both of which are extremely helpful. Thanks to those people who put that information together!
    This surprises me because it shouldn't have to be in theory. The game has to somehow compare how much lessons you've put in and what that unlocks, so assume each skill has a parameter to it that says it unlocks at x lessons or at a certain % of rank. Unless of course the issue is more in the way that AB display is set up or there is some legacy component involved that I can't think of. Right shame though if so, I think it could be something that helps in player retention and accessibility to novices. The wiki is rather quite outdated, Xiel's site is better but it lacks some recent stuff too. Of course, both are volunteer projects, so some slack is allowed.

    On a sidenote, are there active authors for the official wiki? I think it could do with more work, but of course that means people need to be able and willing. I also think that it would be really neat if the wiki would actually sync with ingame data as a sort of out of game AB list, but you'd need a scraper for that plus a way to combine scraped data with player edits that contain additional info. I'm not sure what is available in terms of API for that, my guess is there might not really be one.

    I'm also wondering, since the rework of combat / afflictions seems to be a big thing which I am under the impression will happen, if the AB / learning code could be looked at as part of that, or if it would go outside of the scope of it?
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  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    Assuming I don't have much to do at work today, I plan on getting started with working on an AB replacer for Mudlet.  Will follow up with progress.
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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Essentially: If legacy code, then ability to make useful changes approaches zero.

    See warrior weapons / forging (weapon base templates in particular). Also see defenses.

    They have spent a lot of time rewriting legacy stuff, but the whole skill system is a massive undertaking (have to do it for every single skillset in the game). Sure, there are probably hacks they can do to make some changes work- but that just makes the whole thing even more nightmareish.

    Without having access to the direct code, it is really difficult to say how easy / difficult any idea will be- but everything I have ever heard about the legacy code indicates that something which should be easy (eg, the game being able to undo a truefavour's effects on skills temporarily) may immediately veer off into the realm of "here be dragons".
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  • Estarra said:
    Just in case anyone forgot, we have 0 resources to take on big projects right now (it really would be despite how simple it may sound) because of the combat overhaul test we are working on. That said, for the test overhaul, we are reworking the skill system where this could be possible if it ever goes live.
    Just out of curiosity (and I am perfectly capable of accepting a "No clue" answer), do you have a rough estimate of how long until we get the first view of the new combat system first-hand?
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  • No clue. X_X
    Ssaliss said:

    Estarra said:
    Just in case anyone forgot, we have 0 resources to take on big projects right now (it really would be despite how simple it may sound) because of the combat overhaul test we are working on. That said, for the test overhaul, we are reworking the skill system where this could be possible if it ever goes live.
    Just out of curiosity (and I am perfectly capable of accepting a "No clue" answer), do you have a rough estimate of how long until we get the first view of the new combat system first-hand?


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  • It's okay, Estarra.  We love you anyway.  Thank you for being awesome and starting such a massive undertaking, even if it ends up not happening. :)
  • Yep :D I'm very patient; it doesn't matter much if it takes a week, a month or half a year before we can see what it will turn out as!
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  • edited August 2013
    I agree. It is like they say "If something new requires alot of time to come out, then think of how much more awesome it will if it requires this much time!". Personally I dont mind, my only beef was with the difficulty to find out info about skills in game and the need to access an outside source (Yes I know some books in libraries more than likely have listed abilities in a skill, but that is still a hassle). For example, when I returned I had alot of questions about the new abilities, especially Dramaturgy, Wyrdenwood, and Aerochemantics. To get answers for them, I had to try and find an active user in the skills and have them answer me alot of questions. So far I know what I need about Dramaturgy, but the others, not as much :/.
  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    Arcanis said:
    Wyrdenwood, and Aerochemantics.
    active user in the skills
    I lol'd
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    edited August 2013
    Holy crap this game has a lot of skills.  I'm currently creating a severely nested table with all of the skills at their percentages in alphabetical order.  I'm on alchemy and am already 192 lines in.
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  • NeosNeos The Subtle Griefer
    Tarkenton said:
    Holy crap this game has a lot of skills.  I'm currently creating a severely nested table with all of the skills at their percentages in alphabetical order.  I'm on alchemy and am already 192 lines in.
    I made a spreadsheet with every skillset listed, was a big list. The thread is somewhere around here!
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    Celina said:
    You can't really same the same, can you?
    Zvoltz said:
    "The Panthron"
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    edited August 2013

    This is a long shot, I know, but is there any chance that you adminny types could shoot me a message or email or even a public post with the percentages or number of lessons to learn each ability within a skill?  I've run across a few inconsistencies/guess/unknown skills on Xiel's site, and I'd like for this to end up fairly accurate.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods
    You can ask Iosai, who usually is pretty forthcoming about such things.
  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear
    @Iosai, I'll kill a million kephera in your name.  Or whatever it is you find delicious.  I'll even mail you pocky if I can get hard numbers on X lessons to learn Y ability in Z skill.  I'll also share the numbers w/Xiel so that the wiki can be awesomely updated.
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  • If you want specific instances, sure, but it would be too time consuming for me to give you every skill spread at the moment. Fortunately, as Estarra touched upon, it's something I will be able to make incredibly simple (and perhaps freely available) as part of the overhaul. :)
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Overhauls are awesome! :)
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  • Xenthos said:
    Iasoi is awesome! :)

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