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Telekinesis
Is there a single other mage actively participating in PVP that actually uses it still? The last envoy report I have seen is from early 2016. So every skill on the list must be well balanced and carefully selected, right?
Magnetize is worthless garbage. Causes bruising if the caster is hit by a warrior/monk in a 4-5 second interval? Totally worth 4s or 6s of channel balance? The amount of bruising better be absolutely crazy if you're using a channel for it, but since no warrior I've ever tried it on has even mentioned the bruising I doubt it.
Forcefield isn't necessary these days since everyone can have giant health pools. So it doesn't have the "weight" to carry the skill anymore. Therefore any arguments from "PVE/PVP adaptability" fall flatter than before.
psychicfist on jaw only gives confusion, since broken jaw is no longer an affliction. I'm not sure how confusion helps vessels, since if anything it will make the opponent sip health more often.
Fling does some damage indoors and causes sprawl, but less than just pointing your staff at the enemy. For sprawling TK already has trip, which also causes 1s stun. At no point would you use fling indoors, which is odd because one would think TK would be all about close quarters combat. For 3 power, perhaps it should actually do something useful indoors? One would think suddenly smashing into the ceiling would at least cause damagedskull. Outdoors it at least does "something", damagedskull and a concussion, if they are unable to stop from crashing into the ground.
Psychiclift? Acquisitio is everywhere these days. Not even I bother with psychiclift.
animatedagger locks the only channel you can use Clot on: Id. Clot is MANDATORY if you're going for a heartburst kill right now, so unless you're not going for a heartburst (then why go TK?) it's useless. The only use I can think of for it is Pyromancers.
Sweat causes slickness, which is a steam cure. What else, for a personal example, does a Geomancer cause that is a steam cure? It's an easy cure that doesn't stick around long enough to actually stop any other curing from happening.
Burst has a random chance to give only 1 vessel. Which means if you're unlucky you waste 4s channel balance on an opponents single sip of health.
The useful skills TK has are:
Trip: Guaranteed sprawl, 1s stun, two channel options.
Clot: Unknown affliction. Mandatory for kill. Id channel only.
Choke: Blackout in five room radius. First one is cured by allheale. Second one may get some affs in if you perfectly time the demesne tic for when they can't use allheale.
Throatlock: Anorexia: lucidity cure, which sort of goes well with phantasm skills.
Pyre: Pyromancers might like it I guess. It's an ice cure, which stacks with three out of four of the psychicfist selections I suppose. Makes the list because not completely useless.
Maybe useful:
Psychicfist: I haven't really seen this do anything other hinder skill sets can't do faaaaaar better. But it does something, I guess.
forcefeed: Possibly useful depending on how much cooks can poison food these days. I'm not really sure until I talk to a cook.
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Psionics doesn't really offer much salvation either.
secondsight is worthless now that the skill sixthsense is here.
psychicpush? How about gust? beast gust? Who uses this?
Scan? Why not just use SCENT?
amnesia... Does that skill even do anything anymore?
The good:
Shatter: Because being able to destroy psionic barriers is a good thing to have for a psionic user. duh.
Bodydensity: Rooting is good to have.
Alteraura: remove some defenses. Eh.
Psiblade: Does stuff to dreamweavers now.
Bodyscan: useful for heartburst and other things.
Maybe useful:
Hyperhidrosis: not sure what it cures or how often it causes slickness.
Thoughts?
Magnetize is worthless garbage. Causes bruising if the caster is hit by a warrior/monk in a 4-5 second interval? Totally worth 4s or 6s of channel balance? The amount of bruising better be absolutely crazy if you're using a channel for it, but since no warrior I've ever tried it on has even mentioned the bruising I doubt it.
Forcefield isn't necessary these days since everyone can have giant health pools. So it doesn't have the "weight" to carry the skill anymore. Therefore any arguments from "PVE/PVP adaptability" fall flatter than before.
psychicfist on jaw only gives confusion, since broken jaw is no longer an affliction. I'm not sure how confusion helps vessels, since if anything it will make the opponent sip health more often.
Fling does some damage indoors and causes sprawl, but less than just pointing your staff at the enemy. For sprawling TK already has trip, which also causes 1s stun. At no point would you use fling indoors, which is odd because one would think TK would be all about close quarters combat. For 3 power, perhaps it should actually do something useful indoors? One would think suddenly smashing into the ceiling would at least cause damagedskull. Outdoors it at least does "something", damagedskull and a concussion, if they are unable to stop from crashing into the ground.
Psychiclift? Acquisitio is everywhere these days. Not even I bother with psychiclift.
animatedagger locks the only channel you can use Clot on: Id. Clot is MANDATORY if you're going for a heartburst kill right now, so unless you're not going for a heartburst (then why go TK?) it's useless. The only use I can think of for it is Pyromancers.
Sweat causes slickness, which is a steam cure. What else, for a personal example, does a Geomancer cause that is a steam cure? It's an easy cure that doesn't stick around long enough to actually stop any other curing from happening.
Burst has a random chance to give only 1 vessel. Which means if you're unlucky you waste 4s channel balance on an opponents single sip of health.
The useful skills TK has are:
Trip: Guaranteed sprawl, 1s stun, two channel options.
Clot: Unknown affliction. Mandatory for kill. Id channel only.
Choke: Blackout in five room radius. First one is cured by allheale. Second one may get some affs in if you perfectly time the demesne tic for when they can't use allheale.
Throatlock: Anorexia: lucidity cure, which sort of goes well with phantasm skills.
Pyre: Pyromancers might like it I guess. It's an ice cure, which stacks with three out of four of the psychicfist selections I suppose. Makes the list because not completely useless.
Maybe useful:
Psychicfist: I haven't really seen this do anything other hinder skill sets can't do faaaaaar better. But it does something, I guess.
forcefeed: Possibly useful depending on how much cooks can poison food these days. I'm not really sure until I talk to a cook.
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Psionics doesn't really offer much salvation either.
secondsight is worthless now that the skill sixthsense is here.
psychicpush? How about gust? beast gust? Who uses this?
Scan? Why not just use SCENT?
amnesia... Does that skill even do anything anymore?
The good:
Shatter: Because being able to destroy psionic barriers is a good thing to have for a psionic user. duh.
Bodydensity: Rooting is good to have.
Alteraura: remove some defenses. Eh.
Psiblade: Does stuff to dreamweavers now.
Bodyscan: useful for heartburst and other things.
Maybe useful:
Hyperhidrosis: not sure what it cures or how often it causes slickness.
Thoughts?
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(c) Iron Realms Entertainment 2012.
Comments
I mean, I have my own opinion, but I'm curious as to what you think, since it's conspicuously absent and is one of the most memorable skills of TK.
I suppose I'd put it into the useful category, but there are other methods that can keep single targets from running that don't cost ten power and a locked channel.
I think some of the skills you listed are also more useful than you say. Forcefield is actually still useful in pvp and its reduced usefulness these days is not necessarily because people are tankier but because health kills are not as common due to the rise in other kills. You didn't mention PsychicBlock, but I think it is one of the better skills available to Psionics in general. PsychicFist can also be very useful when used with a warrior to keep someone from curing wounds or running away too quickly. You are underestimating how much stronger barrier is compared to other forms of movement block.
The reasons you don't see many TK around are likely that 1) stratagems didn't work properly with psionic channels so it required "balance chasing" which most people don't want to do, and 2) Runes and Dreamweaving are easier skillsets in many ways.
That said, there is a SR report for mage and druids that will likely look into the tertiaries as well. TP has many more issues than TK has.
Edit: And honestly, you really shouldn't judge a skillset based on how many skills are actually worth having, because I am fairly sure I can make a list for Dreamweaving that is much shorter than even your own list for Psionics/TK.
I'm not an envoy. I actually hate the envoy system. I'm not going to have the patience to quibble back and forth over small minutiae like envoys do in their virtual power manipulations. All I know is that the skill is seemingly dead, with no attention paid to it in more than a year (I guess with the exception of psiblade). Almost no one uses it. If the other skills are "easier" than TK or TP, (such that players overwhelmingly choose not to use it) then to me that simply means the skill is clearly and massively substandard.
I'll leave the debating over what tone to use, what to focus on when judging a skill etc. to the virtual combat lawyers among us. I just see what is, to me, a pretty obvious problem.
Edit:
Oh, here's one quibble I came up with though, pertaining to psychicfist: Hooray, it can be a synergy with warriors, well known as taking a long time to get a kill. So between the two of us we can take forever to kill someone! Awesome. Meanwhile Bards, Monks and toad cursers say "Hi, we just got done killing the rest of your team in the time it took you to kill one person."
TK isn't the only skillset that is full of worthless skills. Dreamweaving, which has been the meta for most of the year, has far more skills that nobody has even used. Does that make Dreamweaving substandard?
Warriors are actually in a much better spot than people would have you believe, especially with SSC closing up many of the shortfalls that previous systems had that other strategies have kind of relied on. And if you are going to compare the typical offence to toad cursers... well, without going details let's just say that you'd be hard pressed to find many other classes that can compare.
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I just did some small testing with psychicfist. Even if I do use both the 6s channel and the 4 second channel to do psychicfist on two limbs at once, they can just RESTORE and be back to shape in 7 seconds. That's assuming they didn't use ice to cure one limb already, in which case they restore and come back with equilibrium in 3s. Assuming 3s equilibrium balance on restore, they come back with equilibrium balance before my channel is ready to use again.
Psychicfist is nearly worthless unless you're working alongside other players... and even if you are, you could be assisting better using a different skill.
These days, aff stacking is combat. The only "stack" TK seems to be able to do is ice stacking. Which is pointless because the "ice stacking" you can do can be healed by a balance cost skill like RESTORE instead. It doesn't even cost any power.
And yes, we do have demesne. Which is absolutely useless to me, since there are at least two other active geomancers that can meld instead. Since multiple geomancers can't really stack, my "big skill" becomes useless in any group fight where I'm not the melder.
I'm also fairly sure that outside of a lucky death prophesy, no melder setup is really capable of 1v1 killing a competent opponent right now, even assuming they don't just refuse to enter demesne. Some of the chem burst setups might be able to catch someone by surprise, but the real powerhouses of 1v1 melder fighting (druids and TK) lost their 1v1 teeth . It's just not the point of melders - hopefully the special report will make melding overall less frustrating to play against and more impactful feeling to play as.
Or you can just wait for that SR and bring up your concerns then, but trust me, nothing you are saying is new to any of us.
Any hinder combo that either doesn't gain you time, or at least break even, is worthless. It's possible to actually be hurting yourself in the battle for balance by using TK.
I'm already subscribed to the game. Why am I paying monthly for a game that lets it's combat skills go without examination for a year at a time? Worse yet, it actively encourages people to spend money to keep swapping skills to the new flavor of the year. They already have artefacts to make money on, why do skills also have to be a cash cow?
Already, you're setting up for failure in this. You're trying to push an agenda, yet your agenda at this point seems to be to complain, not to get the skill fixed. This is the mistake most threads like this make. You offer only problems, but no suggestions how this may be fixed. You walk in with the idea that you are correct about one thing and therefore must be correct about everything. And you misunderstand two crucial aspects of just about everything: 1) Nothing stops changing, and 2) Changes take time. So, on that front, let me give you a history lesson.
On July 2, 2005, the skillset of Psionics was made available to mages, relying on 3 channels which could be used in sync with illusions, rather than the normal one balance that prevents illusions you have with equilibrium. Obviously, all the people with combat experience go nuts because that's three times the impact you can have on combat. Also, oh emm gee, telekinesis has a massive bashing bonus. Sure, runes was still being used for a bit, but telekinesis (and if you could mesh with it, telepathy) were now the flavours of the day. Every mage ran one of these because you had to to be competitive.
Let's skip for now to ~2011. People start realising telekinesis's burst vessels are starting to cause problems. Heartstop is quickly becoming an unstoppable run or die monster, and even if you run you probably still die from bleeding. People start making changes to fix this because it isn't healthy for the game. The amount of vessels needed for heartburst jumps and the bleeding is considerably lowered.
However, this isn't the only thing what put a can on telekinesis. As brought up by others here, there were a lot of changes in the last 12 years in general, and the last 6 of that has been quite hectic. We introduced stratagems which, until recently, have not worked well whatsoever with psionics (and still require some finnicky modifier stacking), which let's be honest, server-side anything is powerful in certain senses, but server-side balance chasing lets you ignore lag and time things better, that's amazing and we should be doing this, but it isn't available because of a really hard to solve bug to our favourite skillset so let's go explore some ones it does work with like runes and hey some people have been doing good things with runes anyway so we can follow their suit and start getting dproph kills out the wazoo by stacking doubles/triples that sounds fun!
Then (please insert your most suspenseful sound clip here) the Overhaul happened. Even I will admit the whole thing ended up being a huge mess, but pretty much everything in the game changed drastically over a few years as a result of the most basic systems in the game changing. Balance ended up shifting wildly in ways people didn't envision, and for better or for worse, here we are. But when major sweeping changes like that happen, some things come out on top (runes especially got a huge buff from this, though also a few major nerfs - RIP double uncurable daeg) and some things come out worse for wear (Telekinesis).
Now, one thing you have to realise about envoys (you know, the people who bring problems to us so we can fix them) is they play the game. Yes, I know, shocking revelation. But in the end, when you're playing the game, you're more worried about the things that can kill you before you can even blink than you are about things which feel like somebody trying to tickle you (assuming you are not ticklish enough for this to be considered debilitating). So this has been hugely off everybody's radar. In the last few years, and especially since I've been around, we have been looking at things people aren't really been paying attention to, but things take time and we often have to triage.
So, let me now describe how things are on our end. We don't just make balance changes because we feel like it - Any balance change, envoy-suggested or otherwise, goes through a (frankly tedious) system of approvals. First, we determine what the actual problem is - If you've been paying any attention to the two 'Open Combat' threads we have open, getting people to agree on a problem can be time-consuming and like pulling teeth. Then we run it by envoys to make sure it's not going to cause issues (and even they often miss when it might). Then, we run it through the administration - Yes, the entire administration, every god and ephemeral up here gets a say. For some rare changes, we even have to bring it up the chain to IRE and get their opinion. Then, implementation, which involves going through a half million line code base spanning back to 1997 in some places, and god help us if this change is rooted in movement code because the fact that Lusternia's movement code even exists in its current state makes baby Djikstra weep, but that's what happens when you slowly tack on changes and exceptions and new features onto a central bit of code over 20 years across two games with the majority of which done by people who have no formal software development training. Now, this probably sounds easy enough - Let's scale it a bit! Excluding Special Reports, there are 36 of these changes that need to be made a month. Along with new features, because if players don't get their new features, they start getting antsy about the game being "dead in development". Along with the monthly promotion. Along with bug fixing. Oh, and did I mention most gods aren't coders and we literally only have two coders right now both of whom have demanding full-time jobs and often have other responsibilities too (like, for example, I am currently handling patron requests for three orgs, handling a large amount of support requests that come in, making sure that the other divine have everything they need to do their events and org stuff, providing help scripting mob behaviours when things get buggy, training ephemerals, running events of my own, trying to herd envoys, and manage the projects and people I need to manage - Oh, and this is all interlaced with me trying to move across the continental united states too).
So, regardless of your thoughts on telekinesis, things aren't going to happen immediately just because you made this forum thread and started accusing us of moneygrabbing. As has been mentioned multiple times by an envoy here, there is an approved SR that is going up actually some time in the next.... week for discussion here, on the forums, to look at mages/druids and woodchems as a whole, including tertiaries such as telekinesis. This has been planned for months at this point and will hopefully be a chance to find -solutions- to the various problems you've listed with both melding and telekinesis.
And now, coffee.
Theres a big backlog of envoy reports that are still being worked on. Theres a lot of catching up to do for sure.
I mean don't get me wrong I wish we could get a special report in and done for melders and other classes yesterday as well.
For sure though telekinesis has a lot of stuff going for it and a lot of stuff thats kinda broken and not working but also for sure its not the worse tert about there.
Two new monk guilds just came out. There's some kind of melding overhaul being looked at for the near future. The last skill overhaul was dreamweaving because there were a bunch of events centered around dreamweaving, and the changes as part of that were non-functional. If you're actually pissed about old, crusty skillsets, TK is no where near first in line. Hello wicca, hi, totems.
With relation to TK, there was a time when mages got have their meld and be absolute terrors outside of their meld also with TK. That was nerfed to a reasonable level, and then the overhaul changed a lot of paradigms. In any event, being able to flat stack by spamming TK solo up to heartburst is not okay because 1) there's virtually nothing to be done to stop it, 2) It fully stacks with demesne, and 3) it fully stacks with other TK/bursts. If that's your threshold, you will frankly always be dissapointed.
It sounds to me like the business side of things has flaws. Which means I'm throwing money down a black hole that will close up soon enough anyways. Thanks for clearing things up further.
PS: You don't see me writing threads like this about Crow.
Crow op.
-Kilian
From my perspective it's just frustrating. Knowing that no matter how much time I put in to trying to learn the skill, it's potential is on a tier list somewhere. If it's not near the top I won't be able to do much with it. I'm big into the "if you put the time in, you can succeed" sort of thinking and that just isn't the case here. I'm reliant on other people to make it "work" and that is frustrating. It just seems like I'm wasting my time spinning my wheels in the mud.
Balance is difficult. In a multiplayer game like this, especially one with competition(both PvP and the more nebulous 'who is better at bashing/influencing/telling stories using all the pretty colors') balance is also very, very important. And with such import it takes time, as many have already said. It also, however, takes ideas. And this is one area where your posts fall apart. See, when one has an issue like this, it is always better to offer constructive criticism rather than just plain old criticism. I can understand frustration with a skill not being what you want it to be. But just ranting about it isn't going to accomplish anything good. All that does is engender negative feelings in all those working hard at doing said balancing. Be it by having their own frustration being fed by yours and feeding yours in turn, and thus creating a self-sustaining cycle that makes viewing a thing to be balanced objectively difficult, and thus frustrating to work on. Or by making them get upset at you, and dismissing your words out of hand due to such, thus disregarding any ideas you, as a user of said thing to be balanced, which can adversely impact the thing. So instead of ranting and getting bitter, try offering ideas. They don't have to be on mechanics, though if you can that would be great. But you could instead consider the thematic of TK and how it could be changed to be more effective while retaining the same feeling one likes about it. Forcefield making you harder to kill no longer doing so due to damage killing no longer being prevalent? Okay. So suggest a change that makes it relevant again. Maybe changing it to be more like a rune of absorption or beastmastery bodyguard, which occasionally no-sells attacks and thus the damage/afflictions from them. Probably not that, though. That would likely be terribly unbalanced. But the point is to put ideas out there. Get people thinking on the skill in a positive, rather than negative, light.
Next up! Compromise. This is something you'll have to do on occasion. I did when making Kay. Stealth is thematically my absolute favorite monk skill. Sneaky ninja-monk popping out of shadows to ruin your day? Yes please. However, I feel(having played with it on alts, which I'm sure the number of can be confirmed) that harmony is simply flat out better, mechanically. It offers another kill method, tons of defensive goodness, some offensive ability, and a fair bit of utility, compared to stealth's heavy utility focus. So I had to compromise. Either make Kay a harmony monk, and not get stealth(Or Glomdoring, where she would likely fit in much better), or make her a stealth monk and enjoy the theme rather than the mechanics. Ultimately, the idea of Shofangi as berserker-monks who get in your face and break your everything is what decided it for me.
... Got a little away from me there. Anyway. Compromise. You'll have to do it on occasion, in a game like this. Accept a skill you feel is weaker because it just FITS with your character, or accept a stronger skill despite not being a good fit. But if you're compromising so much that you aren't having fun, you should take a step back, and reconsider your character. Are you happy with it? If not, what do you need to change?
Finally... Money. You've made comments about things being cash cows, money pits, etc. Which is, first, blatantly wrong. The only, ONLY things you cannot get without ever spending a dime are the membership XP bonus, and occasional promotional items. Unless my memory is failing me somewhere, that's it. Any other artifact, number of credits, and so on you can get through other methods. Slower, sure, but it's still doable. Earning them in game via credit market, org credit sales, getting them through bardics/artisianals, etc. You can earn enough credits to get anything else without paying a cent. Again, it's quicker to buy credits with $$$, but not necessary. And that is something I'm thankful for. See, IRE, and thus Lusternia, is a business. Ultimately, they're in it to make money. They undoubtedly also like doing the games, like providing us with entertainment, and so on. But if they do not earn money, they can't keep the servers running, and bye-bye Lusternia. So complaining about the company wanting to make money is like complaining about the fact that WoW has a subscription fee. Of course they do, running a server is not a zero-cost endeavor!
Anyway. So, one can earn pretty much everything in the game without spending a cent. So why do so? Well, if you take a step back and look at the game and find you are not being entertained, that you are not enjoying yourself, that logging on is a chore... Don't. Take a break, don't spend money, change something, or several somethings, until the game is fun again. Then give them money. Myself? I love Lusternia. Enough that I have spent enough on it to have a 7800cr retirement value(Which would come in handy if I go through with the idea I've been toying with of retiring Kay to make a Glom. Not so much if I go through with the idea of just moving her to Glom). But I don't enjoy the game so much because I spent a ton of money on it. I spent the money because I enjoyed the game when I didn't have ANYTHING spent on the game. And that's why complaining about monetary cost is not a great idea. I mean, nobody is forcing you to buy anything.
You don't like where TK is right now, and feel you need to change that? Okay. Let's look at it. Transing a skill takes 286 credits. You could just buy the 300 credit package and be done(with some left over), or earn them in game. Buying them straight off the credit market at 25000 gold per credit(which isn't a fully accurate number, but it will do for this) means paying 7,150,000 gold. That is honestly not an unreasonable amount. It would take a bit of time, but not so much as to be prohibitive. And that's not counting any lesson returns if you decided to forget TK permanently rather than temporarily.
Anyway. This went on for... A while. TL/DR? Offer constructive criticism rather than just complaints, be prepared to accept that in a multiplayer game you won't be 100% happy 100% of the time, and if you don't think it's worth paying money in the current state, don't, 'cause you can get it all free with more time invested.
I'm not complaining that they are out to make money for example. I'm a die hard free market guy, but I also know my place as a self respecting consumer. I am happy to pay them for the game's continued existence. I don't like the constant nagging reminder that if I just paid more I could get (insert thing here) faster, though. Or in the case of skills, actually be useful in combat. Eventually the whole thing just starts feeling very pay to win-y in regards to combat. Mostly just in regards to skills, I accept the artifacts as a necessary thing.
I started playing IRE games when I was very young. Younger than I should have been playing them, I'll admit. I finally have the ability to actually pay for their efforts now, but come on. There has to be some level of upkeep on something as fundamental to the game as character skills. If there are too many skills, then maybe cut down on the new skills until it is manageable? Otherwise, you have what we have now: Skills that are the equivalent of the "inner city" and new developments on the outskirts that are nice and cleaned up, but you have to pay more to move there. Then they eventually deteriorate and you're paying again. I don't even want the "best" new top tier skills. Just something stable and reliable that feels like if I know the tool set in and out, I'll be able to do something useful in any given situation.
Is it too much to ask that at least the skills remain somewhat updated with the state of combat? They are a core part of the game, after all. I understand that it takes time, but psionics has apparently been dilapidated for a long enough period that almost no one uses it and everyone is "already aware" of the problem. Which is frustrating.
Do they even still do Artisanal/Bardic contests? I haven't seen one since I came back.
Skills ARE being updated with the state of combat. This is incontrovertible fact.
I accept that I'm late to this party. I still think the fact that it got to the current state is wrong and that something should have been done back when players were overwhelmingly dropping the skill. I may not be the most brilliant person on the planet, but I know what it means when "consumers" are overwhelmingly choosing one option over another.
Seeing a skill whose last envoy report was more than a year ago and contains many bad skills is a bit wrong. Unless I'm using the REPORT LIST function incorrectly, the last one for TK was in 2016. Derelict, dilapidated, abandoned. No moves to maintain it until more than a year later. Doesn't really inspire confidence.
On one hand it's great that players have a say in skills. However, if the envoys are only worried about the skills currently being used, there is this kind of problem that crops up. If we're paying them to keep the game going, the skills should probably be maintained well. It's a core game mechanic. One of the first things you do when you start Lusternia is pick your skills and start using lessons to learn them. In many ways, your character's skills are the foundation of your character.