Yep! If the goal was increased 1v1 viability and focusing on that, it didn't happen. We're all looking to put in reports to try and fix that, but it looks like there is going to be heavy opposition to changing anything, especially before the rest of the skillsets come out over the next several months.
The niche for Wildewoods right now is stacking with physical classes, because of the afflictions I selected for our flower affs. It's something we now do fairly competently, though we need to ignore the entire rest of our skillset and just spam vines/shieldstun in the process. 1v1 combat isn't in the cards, nor is actually getting a kill in ourselves, generally. It's even more of a support based than normal druid. If you want to be a druid and do 1v1, take the melding class, not the chemantics class!
The meld always takes precedence, its timing and effects trump anything else.
This is literally how it's worked since I've been playing, probably since these skills first came out - the start of the game. It doesn't really ever come up, there are only a very few places it becomes relevant, and even then, it's generally preferable to use them in a demesne anyways. It's demonstrably fine, and no one is going to waste time reporting to change it, when it doesn't impact anything.
Timing meld effects to tic together is easily accomplished. Now, if an already existing meld completely dampens non-meld based effects in locations it covers, that would definitely not be an issue... but imagine effectively two melds hitting you at the same time. There are some effects that definitely stack... double the pollen, double the spores, effects that deal damage - thorns and storm in the case of druids, and effects that draw from a stack of afflictions to afflict with a random one? I'd say that's a problem. Claiming that it isn't one because "it works better in a meld" is the wrong way to go about it.
EDIT: Will likely need to do some testing later when there's more druids up and about to see if meld and effects cast by another will stack.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
What? The meld takes precedence over other effects. If there is a meld and non-meld effects in a room, the meld trumps it, and its effects are the only ones that work. No double effects, no 'two melds'. If it worked that way, you'd be seeing it a LOT more. In our guild, all have the fighters have understood it works this way for centuries (as most of your guild and the other melder guilds likely have). We would have abused it by now if we could! Go out and test your skills a bit! The ABs have 'DEMESNE' in the optional brackets for a reason, it's an intentional thing! It's not the giant problem you imagine, and if you're wanting to stamp out quirky melding features/legacies, this isn't the place to look!
Perhaps the real intentions behind these skills were to give mages/druids something outside of their own demesnes that they could use. That seems to be more the case.
EDIT: Wait, by 'these skills' did you mean 'melding skills' that Elanorwen and I were talking about, or "Chemantics"? In the case of chemantics, mages already have something solid they can do outside their demesne, Psionics.
Coincidentally, these skills are conceptually well matched with TK.
As I've said in my writeups for Wildewood, these new skillsets work decently as a complement to complete kill stratigies outside their own. With no active abilities and a suite of passives and defenses, they function similarly to harmony, acrobatics, or psymet for a monk. Just like those skills, the focus is keeping you alive using passive or preset defenses while you use your primary skillset to effect a kill, as well as enhancing that primary skill. Similarly, these skillsets could be dangerous if paired with a primary skill. It functions a lot like a defensive tertiary!
For mages, TK is that alternate kill method, the 'primary' skill. When used in combat to get a heartburst kill, TK requires that you spend all of your balances using it, in exchange for a guaranteed eventual kill, and a quick one, at that. You also cannot use many defensive abilities without sacrificing that offensive capability. If you pick the 'chemantics options, however, you have a mobile suite of totally passive afflictions that are just as unstoppable as psionics, and that often support burst killing very well - via things like vapours and additional vitals pressure. On top of that, the various backlash effects (while of very little use when pursuing a chemantics kill) can help some with keeping you alive. For TK mages, psionics has generally always been the primary skill for killing in 1v1 or small groups, with melding being a landgrab/support/tertiary for that primary. Now, they have a choice that allows them the same mobility as their psionics primary, which is why the fundamental problems with these skillsets are less of a big deal for them: it's not essential that their -mantics works well, because they can always lean on TK. As Celina says: " Mages just manage because psiosnics is psionics.".
EDIT: I'm sorry that I'm being soapboxy and going on about this, but I'm hoping that if I talk enough about it and explain the issue enough, it will be heard so that we can get down to business and fix these skillsets. At least for Wildewoods/Wyrdwoods who will rely on them to get their kills!
TK isn't really the answer, because outside of a 8 power barrier thats easily disrupted, a Chemantic-TK will have no way to really keep you in the room, and you can easily move and cure whatever vessels you have. 12 Vessels is a lot harder to get to then most think.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
The same problem has always existed for TKs previously, and that didn't stop anyone. If the target can run away so easily, you can run after them just as easily, and with scent tracking it's not hard to catch up to folk in record time (not enough to cure anything they wouldn't otherwise be able to cure).
And if that's a problem for TKs, where all their important affs are on the same balance, imagine what it's like for Wildewoods( and presumably Wyrdwoods), who have to keep 5 affs, all on different balances, some of which are on backlash ONLY, on you for 10 seconds with no hindering after spending 10p and blowing all their passives if they want to kill you, heh.
EDIT:
"But they can run" is a pointless argument. TK has always been a run or die skillset, it still is. With previous mages, you run away before you die, and if they chase, they left behind their meld backup (not that they needed it). With these new skillsets, they can chase and keep their passives. Seems like a win for the chaser with 'chemantics to me.
All I know is that everyone in the Blacktalon guild better start logging in 24/7 and just wander around the basin asking people if they have heard anything about an event happening.
Eventually it will annoy enough people to make it happen!
The same problem has always existed for TKs previously, and that didn't stop anyone. If the target can run away so easily, you can run after them just as easily, and with scent tracking it's not hard to catch up to folk in record time (not enough to cure anything they wouldn't otherwise be able to cure).
And if that's a problem for TKs, where all their important affs are on the same balance, imagine what it's like for Wildewoods( and presumably Wyrdwoods), who have to keep 5 affs, all on different balances, some of which are on backlash ONLY, on you for 10 seconds with no hindering after spending 10p and blowing all their passives if they want to kill you, heh.
EDIT:
"But they can run" is a pointless argument. TK has always been a run or die skillset, it still is. With previous mages, you run away before you die, and if they chase, they left behind their meld backup (not that they needed it). With these new skillsets, they can chase and keep their passives. Seems like a win for the chaser with 'chemantics to me.
Melds help prevent running, with rubble/currents/briar walls/firewalls/windwalls. What TK was balanced around, fighting in a meld and being able to keep the enemy there long enough to kill.
Every single class has a way to stop someone from running (except maybe commune knights?). City Knights have carcer, or can have pits with tracking, bards have perfect fifth, Wiccans have pigwidgeons, mages/druids have the aforementioned melds, guardians have carcer, monks have 'monk'd'. Chemantic and Wildewood have nothing.
We are agreeing on the same thing, Chemantics/Woods are a poorly designed class. I'm just pointing out that TK doesn't help as much as you think it does. It has been a very very long time since I've seen anyone get heartbursted, much less heartbursted outside of a meld.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Just as a note, IMO, these new skills do nothing for 1v1 combat. There's a complete disconnect between the goal and the implementation for both druids and mages. Mages just manage because psiosnics is psionics. I would say they are less group oriented, just because of the nature of demesnes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are more capable at 1v1.
They made the bomb skills hit all enemies, for example. How is that 1v1 oriented? To me it feels like their actual niche is stacking with demesnes. They get boosts for being linked to a demesne user, they allow for multiple mages/druids to stacks passives on a single target which was not available before. If anything, they made the guilds more diverse and powerful in groups. So I guess I'm just not sure why the sales pitch is they were built for 1v1.
Agree wholeheartedly. At least aerochem I think was built 99% with group combat in mind. The skillset is pretty weak if you want to be anything 1v1, but it's pretty insane for groups. I'm really worried about when Glom and Gaudi get their specs because they have proven to be better at maxing their damage and I foresee them taking full advantage of the powers of chemantics.
EDIT: Wait, by 'these skills' did you mean 'melding skills' that Elanorwen and I were talking about, or "Chemantics"? In the case of chemantics, mages already have something solid they can do outside their demesne, Psionics.
I meant the new -chemantics/-wood skills. I'm just saying that the idea to create them likely came out of people tired of having a skillset they can't use when someone else already has a demesne up. I know psionics is great without anything, and not saying -chemantics is there to give mages a fighting chance outside of demesnes, just saying that the whole reason behind it was to give the non-demesne holding mages something to do with their other skillset.
If the goal is to have it be more 1 on 1 oriented then making changes to terts to add any new room wide effects that hit your personal enemies would go against that. Doing so would be inherently problematic, in every case.
Yes really, yes.
Also, if you want to make single target versions of some of them then they should be new skills. Recent envoy discussion seem to indicate there is little interest in making more things that work like dark where there is a 1 person version and room wide version.
Regardless of all that though, I can't help but question the wisdom of hashing out the details for improving the terts while there are still unreleased versions of chemantics.
Realistically, the issue is that the viability of the secondaries and terts in combination with the new primaries are going to have to be looked at.
Now unless people are expecting to be able to convince the admin to make significant changes to the template, we can expect that Wyrdwood is going to have it's own race, a storage method for their "reagents", four "reagents", four utility defenses(one that will probably involve totems, one damage buff, one damage defense), four reactive defenses, four aoe attacks, one standard attack, one reagent consuming attack, an ability to activate all their "reagents", and probably an equivalent of autumnal surge.
But with three of the skills out now, it seems we should have enough of a grip on the core mechanics of the new primaries to start looking at the terts to see how to best integrate them with each other, or if it is necessary at all. Are the specific afflictions that a geochemancer will be able to give going to make a major difference to a review of dreamweaving with the new skills? If they are is that an issue with the review or the afflictions in general?
I am actually of the mindset that some... "phasing" could be done with the skills, firstly removing the abilities that a non-melder cannot or should not be able to use, then going through and looking to see if the skill is still viable with the other applicable skill choices, then filling in what would be needed.
Should have just given Chemantics/Woods to Bards or Wiccans
Yes, because bards really need Aerochemantic Static or a way to give epilepsy :P
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
So now that the awesome that is dramaturgy has settled, perhaps it's time to start building up unrealistic expectations for icky trees again!
I know that it kinda just worked out that team Celest/Seren/Halli got their chemantic skills first (which is kinda fitting since they have historically come closer to destroying the basin than anyone else so why shouldn't they get bomb skills first?).
So on with the needless expectation building - with the implication that the longer we have to keep doing this the higher chance that everyone will freak out when the things we make up don't happen.
------
I heard, from nobody at all because I just made this up, that icky trees will be able to fly and have x-ray vision.
So now that the awesome that is dramaturgy has settled, perhaps it's time to start building up unrealistic expectations for icky trees again!
I know that it kinda just worked out that team Celest/Seren/Halli got their chemantic skills first (which is kinda fitting since they have historically come closer to destroying the basin than anyone else so why shouldn't they get bomb skills first?).
So on with the needless expectation building - with the implication that the longer we have to keep doing this the higher chance that everyone will freak out when the things we make up don't happen.
------
I heard, from nobody at all because I just made this up, that icky trees will be able to fly and have x-ray vision.
Little known fact: The real reason they are called icky trees is because they have passive, roomwide, 0p sap at ground and tree elevations.
This just in: rather than change your race to Stickywood, as was originally proposed, the spec will now change your race to something more in line with your patron:
So now that the awesome that is dramaturgy has settled, perhaps it's time to start building up unrealistic expectations for icky trees again!
I know that it kinda just worked out that team Celest/Seren/Halli got their chemantic skills first (which is kinda fitting since they have historically come closer to destroying the basin than anyone else so why shouldn't they get bomb skills first?).
So on with the needless expectation building - with the implication that the longer we have to keep doing this the higher chance that everyone will freak out when the things we make up don't happen.
------
I heard, from nobody at all because I just made this up, that icky trees will be able to fly and have x-ray vision.
Yes, this is going to be a rant... feel free to ignore the post if you're not in the mood to read such.
The novelty of the thing is already gone. At least for me... when whatever-wood finally does come out, my reaction is likely to be... 'meh' at best. If memory serves, Aerochem came out almost two months ago. Considering the Aeros beat the Blacktalon by about 30 minutes when it came to opening the doors, one would think it shouldn't have taken this long, but either way... I stopped caring somewhere about two weeks ago. Yes, there were special reports and all the other fun stuff like Dramaturgy, but if what we're told is true... and there are different people working on the projects, then I don't really see why there's such a delay.
Anyways, I'm willing to bet that the spec itself would be more or less as underwhelming as wildewood, because we can't give druids anything nice or anything that makes them even slightly viable outside meld.
/rantoff
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The delay to the final three specs is probably to remove the giant bomb damage elements that have cropped up in the previous released specs. Which means when we finally get to pyrochem sometime in 2014 it'll be perfectly balanced with no flaws or ridiculous elements.
Congratulations mages and druids of the Basin, you're all just beta testers for Viynain!
Above post may contain some tongue in cheek.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
If the new race is actually called Ickytrees, I will be very tempted to join for the novelty factor. But my assumption is that it will be stuffed full of mana draining and bleeding skills.
Now for the tainted time travelers! (who should get hella bonus points based on alliteration alone)
This could go in all kinds of fun ways. The engine/steam punk/clockwork themes of the city of mag, demon eviliness of nil, and poison/disease/hunger from geo lore.
Hopefully it will skip over hunger and focus on clockwork tech (think bioshock on crack, like actual literal crack) and poison/illnesses (pox and scabies maybes?)
The formulas seem to be fairly consistent. Passives, effects on being attacked, 1 resistance, 1 buff. 3 bombs and then a few other things but being not mage I'm really enjoying the themes.
If the event included a land bridge to cay just popping into existence then I think we would all be ok with that too.
Now for the tainted time travelers! (who should get hella bonus points based on alliteration alone)
This could go in all kinds of fun ways. The engine/steam punk/clockwork themes of the city of mag, demon eviliness of nil, and poison/disease/hunger from geo lore.
Hopefully it will skip over hunger and focus on clockwork tech (think bioshock on crack, like actual literal crack) and poison/illnesses (pox and scabies maybes?)
The formulas seem to be fairly consistent. Passives, effects on being attacked, 1 resistance, 1 buff. 3 bombs and then a few other things but being not mage I'm really enjoying the themes.
If the event included a land bridge to cay just popping into existence then I think we would all be ok with that too.
Woo admin!
I'll say this (and hope Estarra doesn't kill me): Geochemantics was actually the first skillset designed with any great detail, and I think we were all kind of rooting for Geos during the doors (yes, even me!), just because we think players will enjoy its theme and colour. I'm managing to cling to that enthusiasm, myself, anyways - I love me some geochemantics.
"Post Apocalyptic what-if skillsets" is a pretty cool idea to me, so I've been in love with them all since I heard about them. Particularly geo- - you'll see why with Geos - but woods as well, because they're the ultimate example of nature's will to adapt and overcome. Glomdoring died? Pft. Night died? Pft. Crow died? Pft. We ARE the Wyrd(enwood), the Glomdoring triumphant, defying death and given form to trundle about like good evil rotting treefolk.
Of course, I think the concepts of Aero- were cool ideas, science adapting to warfare, and then Aqua- is cool for way too many ideas (at least, in my head). I love Pyro- too, but you'll just have to wait for that one!
Given the visions, I'm pretty sure geochem is cyborgs. Clockwork cyborgs.
Half-viscanti, all awesome.
EDIT: For those without wheels, the most relevant vision:
Throwing his weapon at Stepasha, the half-viscanti abomination lunges at her. His body and joints hiss and whine with a mechanical fury, one clawed hand pinning a wrist down while he pins her body with his own. What little momentum she can gain in her punches and claws seem to be mildly effective, though it will take her time to get through him. You inhale and then exhale, the air passing through you and out in a deep and characteristic 'hoom'. You ponder whether to act or to watch or to leave. Padding over to the crystal-man, the sea-woman says he should leave with them. He shakes his head and waves her away, saying he has things to do. 'Hooooom,' you exhale again. This was getting mildly annoying. Maybe you should help? The crack of machinery denotes the joints failing on the half-creature. Pushing the sea-woman towards you, the crystal-man tells you to go. What else can you do? You wrap her in your branches and carry her away. 'Hoom,' you exhale for a third time. She was fiesty and angry - she wanted to fight. Maybe you should let her fight. No, no reason for more life to be lost. 'Hoom'.
Comments
Timing meld effects to tic together is easily accomplished. Now, if an already existing meld completely dampens non-meld based effects in locations it covers, that would definitely not be an issue... but imagine effectively two melds hitting you at the same time. There are some effects that definitely stack... double the pollen, double the spores, effects that deal damage - thorns and storm in the case of druids, and effects that draw from a stack of afflictions to afflict with a random one? I'd say that's a problem. Claiming that it isn't one because "it works better in a meld" is the wrong way to go about it.
EDIT: Will likely need to do some testing later when there's more druids up and about to see if meld and effects cast by another will stack.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I meant the new -chemantics/-wood skills. I'm just saying that the idea to create them likely came out of people tired of having a skillset they can't use when someone else already has a demesne up. I know psionics is great without anything, and not saying -chemantics is there to give mages a fighting chance outside of demesnes, just saying that the whole reason behind it was to give the non-demesne holding mages something to do with their other skillset.
But with three of the skills out now, it seems we should have enough of a grip on the core mechanics of the new primaries to start looking at the terts to see how to best integrate them with each other, or if it is necessary at all. Are the specific afflictions that a geochemancer will be able to give going to make a major difference to a review of dreamweaving with the new skills? If they are is that an issue with the review or the afflictions in general?
Signature!
Little known fact: The real reason they are called icky trees is because they have passive, roomwide, 0p sap at ground and tree elevations.
"Nothing matters but Ickytrees!"
/
/
The novelty of the thing is already gone. At least for me... when whatever-wood finally does come out, my reaction is likely to be... 'meh' at best. If memory serves, Aerochem came out almost two months ago. Considering the Aeros beat the Blacktalon by about 30 minutes when it came to opening the doors, one would think it shouldn't have taken this long, but either way... I stopped caring somewhere about two weeks ago. Yes, there were special reports and all the other fun stuff like Dramaturgy, but if what we're told is true... and there are different people working on the projects, then I don't really see why there's such a delay.
Anyways, I'm willing to bet that the spec itself would be more or less as underwhelming as wildewood, because we can't give druids anything nice or anything that makes them even slightly viable outside meld.
/rantoff
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Congratulations mages and druids of the Basin, you're all just beta testers for Viynain!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!