Best Of

demonnic said:

Just my 2 cents, but the actual people on the other side of the screen should be more important than anyone's roleplay, at all times. No one disagrees. And when actual people come out and say they actually feel bad about things which are happening to them based on discriminatory roleplay, that should be more important than preserving that discrimination in a game which is meant to be fun for everyone involved. Agreed in general, hence an attempt at solutions. Though, there is a difference between walking into this situation blindly versus wanting your way after intentionally choosing a thing. RP decisions have consequences. And that's without even getting into the whole "there's enough of this bad crap in my real life I don't need it in my vidya games" side of things. Yeah that's a bit out in left field here. Sure, escapes are important, but if you want a 100% escape don't choose a conflict riddled game.

"You can buy your way out of it" doesn't seem like a great answer, even when followed with "Or someone else might buy your way out of it for you" That's nonsensical to me. A tiny expense to enjoy things your way is reasonable. Players design and customize a hundred things, this is essentially just one more.

I know I personally steer clear of Mag because play pretend discrimination and meanness towards actual people (or their characters) isn't any more fun to me than the real life sort, giving or receiving. If you don't play in Magnagora, spreading hearsay doesn't seem productive- I don't see any discrimination to actual people. IC is not OOC, which many struggle to differentiate. Mag has been pretty amazingly drama free and supportive to its own for years now. I just feel like these sorts of things come up too often and the response is often "but our ArPee" or "Justification #5 by Chanel" or "just buy a racehat and cheat the system like the rest of us" and none of those actually feel like they're helping the situation which culminated in someone feeling bad enough about something they dared risk the forums to talk about it. People sharing their feelings is so crucial. And, disagreement with a certain aspect of an opinion does not denote invalidation of their feelings. Anyhow, yes this topic does come up once in a while, even sometimes when someone doesn't get their way. There are solutions in this thread beyond a race hat. Also, I know the older Mags are tired of dealing with this situation because we enjoy being supportive and helpful especially to newer players. Progress would be a win-win for everyone involved, but that poses 2 problems: 1) Banning races mechanically restricts RP (there's always going to be someone who wants to play how they want to play. Restricting that has its own downside.  2) It creates tension since admin would have to implement the ban (Mag could ban I suppose, but we don't like dissuading anyone from anywhere); surely it sets an awkward recent precedent and situation. I can recall certain other admin restrictive step-ins regarding org population dynamics that were highly disliked in times past.

Maybe that makes me a snowflake Literally no one suggested you as such, why even say this? , but mostly I think it just means I care about people and their feelings more than the game or its story. Ok- caring about both is just fine too. And when I saw another thread from another person saying the racial discrimination in the city feels inflexible and is hitting the feelsbadman button, I felt like I have to point out that this is starting to look like a pattern, and one which involves people feeling hurt or upset and perhaps that means it's a pattern worth breaking. One can certainly and easily choose to avoid it, but that's fair.

Edited to Add: And if the RP is only important at such a superficial level that everyone's just buying their way around it anyway, maybe it's not actually that important? You're right, some contemptible RP is not terribly important when weighed against the cohesion of Magnagora. That's the big picture, which I think you're missing entirely. Do your thing, but when someone tries to threaten Mag unity/policy through force, expect to get kicked into oblivion (like a certain urchin). There's a big difference between having a frustration about a certain RP, and trying to dictate to an org. The buying around it as you say, it's a way to have your cake and eat it too. However, stirring drama is to be put down like a lame horse. City drama is stomped out hard no matter the source. We enjoy unity and plagues, though not necessarily unity plague.

Loralai thanks for your responses that seem more than reasonable. I think you make valid points, and I doubt Magnagorans would die on the hill of being resistant to change generally. Change is quite literally.... our thing. If a ban was too heavy-handed, certainly an informational note on character creation like aforementioned about the RP may go a long way to avoid frustration. I think we all can agree more can be done to reduce frustrations, verily.

Sorry double post. It just ocurred to me that the recommended/not recommended races for orgs don't show up in the intro anymore. Maybe this is something that needs to return so newbies make informed racial choices in their orgs.

To address Loralai specifically, I'd say that I agree that Magnagora should just ban the races rather than dangle contemptible RP as an "option". I'd wager a guess and say that the non-contemptible players in Magnagora might find some passing interest in pretending-hating you, but at the end of the day I'm sure it's extremely exhausting to go against the grain of your own sensibility to do the contemptible song and dance. To say nothing of the ultra-depressing experience of being the contemptible player.

Double post but I think it’s worth saying that most Magnagorans are not being jerks to other Magnagorans (maybe old Magnagora was like that but it’s really not like that today). So saying we are being play mean discriminating is far from the mark. 

As someone who also made a contemptible at a few points in my history with Lusternia I can say that's it's pretty hit or miss. Currently said kephera left a really bad taste in the city's mouth by stirring a little drama before they departed. I have an elfen who hides in the undercity (where they belong) and designs with the scraps they have available for the other lowly serfs and beggars that flood the streets. While the character is wildly limiting due to not having upward mobility, there just isn't a lot of people willing to roleplay with contemptible players due to the recent ones burning them when given a chance. I haven't seen or heard anyone talk negatively of you in particular, and I personally quite enjoy your character. I think the law could potentially be looked at, or perhaps give all contemptible players a probation of sorts to prove they aren't the slimy scum that the rest of their people are without totally excluding people the social cast, which would still allow the rest of the city to side-eye them or write them off as "one of the good ones".

I'm sorry to hear you're not having a great time in the city, and I hope you find somewhere in the game that gels well with you. 

What it comes down to is really. If you want to have an experience where you can gain rank in Magnagora, and generally be accepted by everybody. It’s not going to happen as a kephera, merian, or elfen. Whenever people of those races join the Society. I try to make it very clear OOCly that it’s not really recommended and you should probably racechange. If they insist, it’s something they’ve asked for.

As Zagreus mentioned, if you get a race hat and don’t flaunt that you’re secretly a merian, nobody will care. If you reincarnated into another race - nobody would care you were contemptible.

If you want to fully enjoy being a Magnagoran, frankly you probably shouldn’t play as a contemptible. There are some people that don’t care, but overall shouldn’t ask those who do to compromise the roleplay of their organization.

For myself (and I know others), I typically don’t reach out to roleplay with contemptibles as I want to keep to the roleplay of Magnagora in disliking them, but it’s really not an experience I enjoy playing and I would just rather said person not be one to begin with. I don’t particularly enjoy the idea of reaching out to a contemptible just to stomp on them. And if you’re OOCly expecting an interaction beyond getting stomped on, I’m sorry but that’s the established roleplay of generations of Magnagora - see above about reincarnating or getting a race hat. 

In short, it’s an option for those masochists that really want it - but it’s not a recommended play experience and if you feel you’re mostly being ignored in part that is because other Magnagorans don’t always enjoy the interactions there either (plus whatever time of play issues there are). That said I’m sure we would respond if we’re reached out to.

Just throwing in my 2 sovereigns.

Mal does not care about race. They have purpose to him, only in two factors:
1) Aesthetics, as he tends to notice a lass with fur.
2) Racial ability, as he sometimes asks for specific ones.
If you're a merian, you can run a hunt, yay. He does not follow Fain or care that you are merian. He has previously cityfavoured contemptibles because he genuinely doesn't pay attention to races. He remembers names, he may forget genders, and he ignores race. The only time you will see him bring up race directly is something like "Do we have an igasho to tackle?". 

It is just not who he is. Now, there are other people in Magnagora who are not especially concerned with race, and this is why things could change. I think incremental progress could be made, but it has to be incremental, you aren't about to become Warlord tomorrow. This will take work and diligent RP though. 

Fain even years after his departure certainly lives up to his teachings of conflict, hatred, and greed. He and his history are quite obviously the genesis of the policy.

I don't think bringing the Sutekh topic into this conversation does you any favors. There's a lot to unpack that I won't get into, but doubling down on being contemptible race publicly is not a good example for your argument. Mag is not going to just forget its RP because a person thinks their desires weigh more heavily than centuries of Mag RP and their Elder's wishes. They, like you by your own words, are not newbies. So it appears you enter into that race and RP with knowledge of how they are treated. It strikes me as odd to walk into a punch and then question to the punch you knew was coming.

I really don't want to interact with most people in Mag, because of the feeling that I'm just going to be pissing them off by doing so. 
I don't feel that way, for what it's worth. Interacting is more than welcome. I'd offer we just don't want a contemptible race flexing on their contemptible race and waving it around as if we should care. Maggots belong in the dirt, not riding on a tainted gas cloud with champagne.

If Magnagorans, generally, feel that there is no way that anyone could play a merian, kephera, or elfen in an interesting way and be of some benefit to the city... then just ban those races.
I don't feel that way. Many can and have played those races with interesting RP and also have contributed. Those that do have to accept that they will not get advancement opportunities in the city. Until Sutekh went off the deep end and tried to flex their racial RP to contest/advance in cityrank, they would have been a great example of such.

NPCs generally now respect race hats. Generally players respect race hats. There are a couple methods to check true race, but no one cares to in my experience. If your aim is to solve a problem rather than causing a stir: If you're absolutely set on being one of those races and choose not to change, buy a race hat, don't "flex" contemptible RP, and live your best life would be my advice. (Any number of Mags would just buy it for you, if that's an issue.) If you don't think this is possible... I'm merian most of the time for hunting bonuses (THE HORROR!)... If Fain came back tomorrow, I'd point at my race hat (and let's be real, the 50 other mask-like artifacts covering the face) and say, "Surely the mighty Red Masque, whose Masque is not really as such, would not begrudge me a myriad of secrets as well, right Lord?"

I'm going to start this discussion knowing that nothing I say here is likely to make the situation(IE, my situation) any better. On the other hand, I don't believe it's possible to make it worse. So here we go.

-No, I'm not a newbie. I haven't played a while and there's a lot I've forgotten.
-Yes I was aware of the laws concerning contemptibles and general expectations, etc etc.
-I am not complaining about being treated "badly"
-I had only a passing familiarity with Sutekh and knew almost nothing about what happened between him and Mag until Shango told me(IC).

I have heard it before that the way Magnagora treats 'undesirable' races is at least better than Celest's complete banning of them, presumably because it allows for the possibility of roleplay. I may have even made that argument myself before. The claim that I've heard from some is that the law might have been changed if not for Sutekh's actions. I don't care either way if that's true. What bothers me is that knowing this makes it obvious that it is impossible for anything to ever change. 

It's one thing to know that certain limitations exist currently. It's another to know that there's always now going to be a "roleplay" justification for why the law can't be changed, even though Sutekh wasn't really a kephera any more than I'm a merian, and we have nothing to do with each other. Because of this incident (and other things I've heard oocly), I really don't want to interact with most people in Mag, because of the feeling that I'm just going to be pissing them off by doing so. As it is, I would suicide this character if not for how ridiculously lucky I've been for solstice and vaults so far.

My point is, I hate what feels like dishonesty more than anything else about this situation. If Magnagorans, generally, feel that there is no way that anyone could play a merian, kephera, or elfen in an interesting way and be of some benefit to the city... then just ban those races. It would be kinder, would cause less frustration and drama, ic and oocly, for all involved. It's not really a side option if current Magnagoran players don't want the rp.

tldr, sorry but Celest is right.