Best Of

Xenthos said:

I think it is a fair point to say that the competition did not involve $ (that I know of, at least).  This has not always been the case.  Final Ascension challenges in the past actually have had seal holders requesting significant Paypal donations for support- personally this feels extremely metagamey, but perhaps the mere fact that it has happened helps you understand how invested players are / think others are in the outcome.

Beyond that, though, a competition does not need to involve money to be treated as a competition.  There is the prestige involved in gaining something that is a "limited-time offer," for example.

A question for you at this point: if Ixion was raised TA, but something else minor was done to acknowledge Choros' win in addition to that, would that offend you?  Would you be as demoralized as you say you were after the event ended?

Woah woah, who and when did this happen? That seems like something that should have been brought up in years past, why didn't it? 

Why not give Parhelion an additional Honour Line? If Ascension does change in the future, this can be retroactively changed to state he was the Last True Ascendant to be raised or something in this ballpark. I am sure he would appreciate it and @Xenthos can feel better knowing it will be an honour line that Ixion cannot ever receive and Ixion's TA will be diminished in some form.

I decided to go to bed early last night because my responses were not relaying what I was attempting to convey.

I think the main issue here is that I'm coming from a different perspective than everyone else. We're attempting a solution that takes everyone into consideration and people are speaking from their personal perspective and not the game as a whole. That's on me for not portraying things properly.

I'm not against doing something small to acknowledge Parhelion, but I think there's a distinct difference between that and doing something like giving a Demigod power only accessible to one alliance. 

(Also, who asks for Paypal donations for Ascension? I've not heard of that, that's crazy, I'm certainly not a fan of that and hope people aren't feeling obliged to contribute - this is off topic and don't continue this line of commenting though, I'm asking rhetorically.)

Xenthos said:

I think it is a fair point to say that the competition did not involve $ (that I know of, at least).  This has not always been the case.  Final Ascension challenges in the past actually have had seal holders requesting significant Paypal donations for support- personally this feels extremely metagamey, but perhaps the mere fact that it has happened helps you understand how invested players are / think others are in the outcome.

Beyond that, though, a competition does not need to involve money to be treated as a competition.  There is the prestige involved in gaining something that is a "limited-time offer," for example.

A question for you at this point: if Ixion was raised TA, but something else minor was done to acknowledge Choros' win in addition to that, would that offend you?  Would you be as demoralized as you say you were after the event ended?

Oh wow - I didn't know that first point has happened in the past.

For your question, I 100% would not be offended if something minor was done to acknowledge Choros/Parhelion being the real victor because that is what happened. If he got a special honors line, a special item, a special typecast - I'm not sure what else might be minor but still be recognition, but I would not only be okay with that - I would be happy about it.

Xenthos said:

Lief said

So many players on our side really were crushed by the outcome more than usual because of the lag. This is a lovely morale boost and I'm not sure how it OOC takes away from the winning side. I am 100% sympathetic to the IC, as again, I'm not sure how Lief will react. But I really do feel that OOC it is a phenomenal gesture that our current admin will take responsibility and work to improve it for next year.

I think others have said, throughout this thread, why it diminishes the winning side... but there are a lot of posts at this point.

Basically, boil it down to this.

Two teams make it to the finals.  Whether it be the World Series, Stanley Cup, World Cup- you have two teams out on the field with a huge amount invested, emotionally, in the challenge.

The field is a ruined mess.  The game isn't called, but everyone is running, slipping, sliding through the mud.

Instead of calling the game, though, on it goes.

It is hard-fought, but when the time ticks down there is a winner.  The cup is given to the winning team.  But then, a couple of days later, the sport's authorities decree that they are making a second cup, exactly the same, and providing it to the other team.

Imagine the feelings of the first at this point, the emotions.  This is the ultimate prize of their sport.  They won it.  Circumstances entirely beyond their control affected the outcome, but because the game continued regardless they pushed on despite that... the joy, the euphoria of overcoming the odds and making the comeback win.

And now, they are told that the thing they competed for is just being duplicated and handed over to the other team- the thing they fought so hard to attain, the recognition that they prevailed, is now diminished to a participation trophy.

That is why it feels like it takes away.

Is it the right call in the context of a game that is simply not in the category of e-sports?  Possibly- if they are attempting to convert the game to be something less competitive, less us v. them, then sure.  But that is not how the event was billed, or until this post was made two days later.  Up until that point the event was the ultimate challenge, Lusternia's version of the World Series.  Acknowledging that, and accounting for that as well, is fair.

I have been reading along, and I fully read that people are upset. I don't understand it because this game isn't one where the prize is IRL money that is on the line - your livelihood isn't potentially at stake, like it could be in your example. Like someone else posted, Ixion will always have an asterisk by his name and Parhelion won't. The real victory is yours, and I am hopeful that the event reflects that, but I really do feel it is in part victory over the lag, not over the other side.

Holding this event is a gesture of kindness and goodwill, especially when the TF we received felt hollow even to me (I realize it was meant to be an apology, and after things cooled a bit but before the announcement I could understand it for what it was, but while people were reeling OOC, it unintentionally hurt people.)

From my understanding, the call was made so delayed because of OOC circumstances and a full day's driving between the end of Ascension and settling in enough to try to figure out the best thing to do. I do understand how the delay in a decision might leave people feeling confused and hurt, but that sounds like something where real life interfered as it can do. They were working with a lot of precedence as well - I personally am on the side that thinks it would have been most fair to delay as well, as I believe I remember you being, but I imagine it's hard to make that snap decision in the moment. I am, however, grateful that they aren't saying "Well, hindsight is 20/20, nothing we can do now, sorry kids".

I had been seeing people speaking to why they were upset OOC - because their characters' IC motivations were being trampled on, and I don't think that's how the event will play out. I wanted to post to express my point of view pertaining to that, as Lief was secretly breathing a sigh of relief that despite giving it her all, Creation was ultimately protected by someone who wasn't undead.

 Hello again. I really wasn't going to post again, but it seems my post didn't sink into some people's heads. So first, I'll point over to my post really fast. https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/204348/#Comment_204348

However most notably I just have to state the obvious here really fast -Rancoura, how did you go from this

Rancoura said:

If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.

to this

Rancoura said:

If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did. 

You just ran circles around yourself and didn't realize it. You've negated your argument while attempting to make an argument. How ANGRY would you and others have been if they said no one was winning, after all that effort? (Answer: Significantly more than anyone is now)

Moving on:

These are the things that people are doing. This is why it is so toxic. Everyone is taking this personally, and can't even formulate a coherent thought, much less present a meaningful argument.

All anyone can do is bash the administration, and tell them how stupid and inconsiderate they are.

(If you're not doing this, then I'm not talking to you. - It pains me that I know I have to put this bit in here. If you still think I'm talking about you, then I probably am.)

So since people seem to have missed it...

STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS

Most of us have had to deal with enough in our professional lives for years, and would rather help spare the Lusternia administration from it as much as possible. They deal with enough bitching and complaining about how they handle affairs regularly, without having to listen to most of this disparaging dribble.

p.s. Silvanus, nice post.

I have maybe a little bit unique of a perspective to offer in terms of IHC IC/OOC.

Seren leadership has had a lot on their OOC plates. When it came time to support someone for TA, Gaudiguch wanted to support Dys and Magnagora wanted to support Ixion, and Serenwilde was the tie-breaking vote. We voted together as a commune when we had a high enough population to have a semi-fair representation of what characters wanted, and while Ixion overwhelmingly won the vote, my character Lief was one of two to voice support for someone who wouldn't be undead. She noted that while she would fight for Creation and honor the alliance's wishes, since Serenwilde had the opportunity, she thought it would be best to support someone she could feel good about supporting.

IC, I'm not fully sure how she will react to someone undead gaining TA, but I am OOC hopeful the event will make it make sense to call on Ixion. OOC I am thrilled the admin are willing to look at everything that happened and decide that the numbers were incredibly close, both sides were really good and had prepared quite a bit, and while Parhelion won and his alliance came out tops, it really is difficult to know the outcome had the lag been even half as bad. Even if we all had been fighting in the same lag I experienced early on, which was maybe around 5sec lag instead of the minutes+ that was experienced.

So many players on our side really were crushed by the outcome more than usual because of the lag. This is a lovely morale boost and I'm not sure how it OOC takes away from the winning side. I am 100% sympathetic to the IC, as again, I'm not sure how Lief will react. But I really do feel that OOC it is a phenomenal gesture that our current admin will take responsibility and work to improve it for next year.

My perspective is that Lief is wholesome.