Best Of

Falaine said:

I've really gotta disagree about the amount of grey area there was here. Li-v was running around the Basin betraying everyone, crapping on everyone, very clearly damaged and insane. It's okay to love her, that's fine. But there were so, so, so many flags of things that were very clearly anathema to the very core of various organizations' base beliefs and causes. As for asking questions IC? I know I did, and so did many, many others at the healing mound. And I was mocked for it, called names, etc. by the Coven members.

I feel like this is arguing that you should be free to do anything because you're having fun doing it- and you should be! But that doesn't free you from consequences. This is a terribly skewed argument, and.. man, if people are crapping on you OOC for your RP then that's messed up, but I've personally seen nothing but OOC support. but from what I've seen the reaction toward the Coven has actually trended toward too mild IC. 

There might have been grey in waking Sea, even though it was impossibly arrogant and motivated by a desire for power rather than love. But less so in waking a healing patient prematurely, through slaughtering fae. And there is absolutely zero grey in sacrificing a child. Period. That's evil. You could have backed out there if you didn't want every org who would be against that sort of thing to condemn you for doing so. And then the 'Cursing the whole Basin' bit. 

Let me be clear. There is absolutely nothing wrong with joining the Coven storyline and loving it. But I am utterly baffled by the shock over the (very clearly warned) consequences of doing so.

One thing I love about Lusternia is that argument for almost everything can be skewed. Taking a brush ooc and saying without a doubt that your IC view is the only correct and valid one is half the problem. 'impossibly arrogant and motivated by a desire for power rather than love' is actually not a black and white fact that anyone can claim or know outside of Li-varili Herself. It may be correct. But it also may not be because no one knows Her inner psyche. Maybe She liked to talk a big game but deep down all She wanted was something tangible, a child to love and cherish that would remind Her of Her lost love. Both sides can be argued! That's my main point. It's not 100% right or 100% wrong, and it's these things that make my love Lusternia lore. It's about perspectives. And players and characters can choose their position and argue them passionately IC, that's awesome. Your comment highlights my own bafflement in why there wasn't more uncertainty within more orgs. Making a choice and backing it is a super valid stance, expecting everyone to completely agree with it without question is what I have an issue with. Things went bad and She has serious issues doesn't equate to aligning with Her is wrong and anyone who did is bad, on a global, blanket level.

As for the child - sacrificing a child is evil, period - that too is subjective. YOU and perhaps your org might 100% agree that is true. Take a look at the vernal child. It brings up ends justifying the means or not. Glomdoring sacrifice a baby ritualistically on the regular! And yet Celest are still ok with working with them. Serenwilde and Magnagora are no strangers to blood sacrifices. Gaudiguch harvest flesh and have labs where they messed with fae. Lots of orgs don't care about fae in general. Ever killed mobs on Frosticia or Crum? So again I take issue with expecting everyone IC and OOC to see things through the same lense. That can be your view and your characters view but it doesn't by default make it the only view or the right view. YOU may think people were too lenient on the coven but that doesn't mean your view is the ONLY one that is right or valid. That's what I'm getting at here. Why would every org be so black and white on it? Should they be? These are just things to think about and I don't think arguing ooc that someone was right or wrong ic is helpful. There are consequences to our actions, but does every org really agree to the same extent on the same topic that one player has no choice but to turn to Magnagora because they sided with an unaligned goddess who was crazy but also very capable of inspiring a lot of sympathy? 

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, because I would love to see more engaging story lines like the Li arc in the future, without people going 'not worth it for the fallout'. That, to me, is a little sad. Mocking someone IC for their views is not the same as mocking them ooc for it. My character has not had to endure adverse consequences for taking part but I really feel for those who have. That's all. I'm just trying to encourage everyone to consider an ooc empathetic view, and hope that there may sometimes also be room ic for the same thing (I really think there is. You can understand someone's point of view and still disagree with it!). Feeling like you need to quit because you picked a certain side is not something nice to consider as players of a game genre that is dwindling. 

So I was actually part of the coven. I missed the start due to an ill-timed vacation (and was super upset by it, not going to lie, I was one of the few Li didn't outright murder when I spoke to Her and had the then-bizarre combination of a favour from both Li and Dro at once, ha.) which was the build up to the actual sea awakening. The subterfuge and plotting there really sounded like amazing fun. To think you can be involved in a secret plot to help a goddess - amazing!

Anyway. I got involved for a few reasons. Having done Rhizoda Mangrove quest there was some insight into Li's past and the hurts She'd suffered before even being imprisoned, and Her link to Drocilla. I felt (and we were encouraged later) that getting to know Her was something Dro would want us to do. I can reveal now, before the plot to start awakening Sea, Sapphira was going to act as a spy for Dro basically, since she had good favour with Her, she was going to continue to play up that devotion to learn the plot and see what needed to happen from there. That all got thrown out the window (seriously, curse my freaking trip, I was so looking forward to it) and it ended up being someone else who did that. I managed to log in just in time to join the bloodcoven at the very end and enjoy some of the chaos of pushing people around the water, not even really knowing what I was doing but not wanting to miss out!

What I really loved, and feel like a large part of the player base missed, is how GREY it all was. It wasn't really cut and dry Li is bad, opposing Her is good. Orgs even taking a strong position of we as a whole are completely opposed frustrated me a little, because when you look at the parts individually, there was a lot to agonise over and be unsure of. Was it really so bad to want to do what was essentially Her pupose, and awaken the Sea? IMAGINE if the other Elders had helped instead of hindered - maybe we'd be hanging out with Sister Sea right now! But it felt like a lot of people didn't even want to pause and consider other angles. It was just NO SEA BAD - which I get from an in character/believing and following my divine perspective more than the ooc perspective. I love that it was debatable. I wish more people had been open to actually debating or at least showing a measure of uncertainty as to what was right. I really enjoyed that Xiran stopped to listen to why we were trying to wake Li from the mound. I think she's the only person who IC asked me any questions. Even among the coven, everyone had different reasons for being involved and a different level of devotion. Again - nothing was so simple as being black and white.

I heard that there were ooc conversations really crapping all over the bloodcoven, which I think is the biggest injustice of all. Imaging how -boring- the event would have been if everyone refused to engage with Li and all we got to do was stand by the elders as they emoted at each other and we got wet. Should orgs ICly take an absolute hard line stance in instances where there is a lot of grey and room for interpretation of motives and understanding if not agreement of how things happened? That's rough on anyone to bear the brunt of that, and I think could provoke really interesting IC debate. But mostly the ooc hate, that's just not ok. Completely being ignored by an org you petitioned to join is RUDE, I don't care who you are. It is not hard to say 'no'. Or 'we will consider if we are open to even considering your request'. Having to listen on a clan while you're mocked ooc for your ic choices is not the positive environment I thought was being fostered in Lusternia and I was really disappointed to learn of it. 

I have absolutely loved this arc. I loved being able to take part. I love that Li-varili showed no favouritism towards an org or race and just hated everyone equally (As a Mag, I really feel this and it was amazing to have a divine that would engage with me without just being all you're a Mag and follow Dro lol get out). Secrets are great. I can't help but wonder though if the Mag safe haven didn't help skew things to presume 'Mag is supporting it so it's evil' somewhat, in an arc that was filled with doubt and multiple points of view and really good reasons to have sympathy for the goddess who'd really had a horrible run. I don't like the stigma of blanket Magnagora being evil - plenty of our own did not get involved at all and didn't trust those that did, and it was managed at least without the org breaking into civil war or ostrasizing people. But again, we had the temperance of Dro basically making room for us to engage or not as we liked without persecution. 

Moving forward - I would love to see more events of this sort but maybe even more grey surrounding our choices. Maybe just once it can be Celest against the world! Or something more subtle that really makes characters choose for themselves and no be the world versus like, 7 players, some of whom come out of it so destroyed they feel their only option is to quit or join an org thet traditionally have actually been opposed to. Supporting Li-varili shouldn't naturally mean 'also likes Magnagora and should live there or just be ousted from everywhere ever' because there is also plenty of reason for Mags to not support her either! Either way. I really loved Li, her personality and emotes were so FUN to behold. She didn't care for anyone and that must have been so liberating to play. I'm also so in love with nereids, I want my own little pocket nereid to hang out with sassing and stabbing people.

Sapphira said:

What I really loved, and feel like a large part of the player base missed, is how GREY it all was. It wasn't really cut and dry Li is bad, opposing Her is good.

As someone who was ever teetering on the idea of supporting Li, what pushed me away completely was the chain of events with the Eye. IMO, I feel like that was a juncture where Li could have showed even a shred of empathy considering some of the mirroring in her pain against Maylea's relationship with her own sister mate, and instead all we got was... grotesque, absurd amounts of narcissism and selfishness on Li's side. This was the point where Jo stopped seeing reflections of some of the good people in her life in this goddess, and could only see a mirroring of all the worst people. If it didn't take so much work to accept her on the surface level (especially with the visible propensity to lie), this "grey" might have felt less murky. I can accept that there could have been more parts to the story to earn more sympathy, but it hurts Li's angle really severely if they're basically only for the coven's eyes.

I have a lot of thoughts on this topic, all colored by personal experience. tl;dr - my boyfriend chose violence and opted to ollie out when I made life hard for him in return, and I regret only some of it.

As a player I'm not afraid to push my character into contentious territory, even when it makes me the bad guy among my circle, which was something that came naturally from this event. Rekath, someone I've played alongside for basically my entire history in Lusternia, sided with Li-varili and the Coven, whereas Eritheyl was and still is staunchly opposed.

As an elected representative, and as the brother of another representative elected at the same level, my character was put in a position to rally behind the ideals of his city or the love for his brother. It's not an easy choice to make, but the damage control had to be pretty immediate regardless of which I opted for - quiet, assumed neutrality wasn't going to be an option for long. On the flip side, from the player's perspective, it was a lose-lose situation. To make things a little more complicated, Rekath and I are RL partners, so there was always going to be some friction if we weren't on the same team, or worse if I raised the stakes in a way that didn't favor him.

The latter is exactly what I did, motioning for the Council to charge Rekath with treason and strip him of his title. It wasn't anything against Rekath, the player, but it was a necessary measure (all in my opinion) of Gaudiguch staking a claim firmly against the Coven and anyone who aided their plots. It was an IC action, driven by IC circumstances, and not without IC internal struggle all along the way. It's unfortunate that it ended the way it did, with Rekath believing there was no course except to retire his character rather than exploring avenues of reparation and redemption. I blindsided him with my countermeasures, assuming consent because he had made the choice to play a role that logically would be condemned. It wasn't pretty, and I've come to terms with how I contributed to his decision and how badly I feel about it. But even after that I will say that I loved this event and how it forced me to question what was right and good for me as a player versus what was right and good for Eritheyl as a character.

This arc was a huge success in my opinion, as unlike with plots past that just had everyone holding hands and using the power of begrudging friendship to save the world, our interconnections were put to the test. It forced some of us to make those tough choices, and brought change and consequence to the game that otherwise we would sidestep in the interest of preserving our personal status quo. That is how you develop characters, and that is how you set a world to evolve based on conscious decisions and bias rather than making one obvious bad guy and one obvious good guy to do battle over and over on a loop. Watering that down and saying "Well it's all IC so no one should have to pay for their actions" is a huge disservice to the work it took to build such a polarizing plot in the first place, imo. Freedom from choice is not freedom from consequence, if you light a fire you should expect to feel the heat.

Jolanthe said:

I'm actually really curious about how the coven was coordinated and the mechanisms behind that too - event posts offer some glimpse, but it sounds like there was a lot of secrecy all over the place (even within the coven itself). Was pretty much everything coordinated through Li?

(We have talked about making a godblog about this very subject! Stay Tuned.)

Lantra said:

I'd like to take a moment to share how we approached the Bloodtide Coven from an event design perspective.

When coming up with the concept for the Li-varili arc, something we knew we wanted to have from the very beginning was a method for players to assist her if they wanted. We discussed internally ways of accomplishing this in a way that would be satisfying for players, and what we settled on was a series of escalating events. Each one was opt-in for the players involved, and as the events went on, the actions slid more into Li-varili's overall desire for revenge.

A player might be comfortable helping awaken Sister Sea, for example, but pause at breaking Li-varili out of Lantra's healing mound with Drocilla. Someone else might be comfortable doing the latter, but not be comfortable sacrificing an innocent taurian boy on the altar of Li-varili's anger, along with a beloved nereid priestess. And still more players would be comfortable doing all those things, but hesitate at imprisoning all the Elder Gods in thousands of years of torment -- or only do so once they realized it was every god, not just the ones in the awakening, that Li-v chose to betray.

We expected players to betray Li-varili throughout the Bloodtide arc, and left doors open for people to become turncoats along the way, and to reward that behavior. We also were open to players staying loyal to Li-varili the entire time and being part of her swan song, and for Li-varili to give them special attention in those final moments. We had plans in place for both situations.

You'll notice Magnagora had different reactions to Li-varili than the other orgs, and this was also by design. We knew orgs like Serenwilde and Celest were going to be more firmly against Li-varili's actions due to their inherent roleplay, but Magnagora through Drocilla's ties to Li gave us an opportunity to "condone" betrayal in a way that players didn't feel they had to go against the org per se. Even when they realized Drocilla had been ultimately betrayed, Bloodtide members could take part through the end and more or less have enjoyed the entire thoroughline of the Year Arc. In essence, Mag would be a "safe haven" if no other org was in the endgame.

Something players often sigh about in the aftermath of a Year Arc is the sense that their actions throughout the arc did not ultimately matter, and that the events would have unfolded exactly the same way if they had not participated. We worked hard this year to give a sense that every player's actions did matter, and the result was a lot of optional high stakes actions on the villain's side that -- understandably -- would invite some criticism by many orgs and players in the game. Because Li-varili's actions were always meant to culminate in the destruction of a Seal, and invite the judgment of the other Elders. Something on this level storywise would have to invite judgment from players, too. We did our best to make everything for the Bloodtide Coven consensual and clear from start to finish.

After Ascension we are likely to write a few godblogs to further expand on this topic, but there is a difference between IC actions receiving IC consequences and IC actions inviting OOC hatred. If you ever feel the latter is the case and you are being harassed to the point of being pushed to leave the game, we invite you to ISSUE yourself.

Thank you for that very detailed response. It makes things much more clear, at least for me. And it's really great to see implementation of players' concerns about their actions making a difference to the game overall. 

Lantra said:

I'd like to take a moment to share how we approached the Bloodtide Coven from an event design perspective.

When coming up with the concept for the Li-varili arc, something we knew we wanted to have from the very beginning was a method for players to assist her if they wanted. We discussed internally ways of accomplishing this in a way that would be satisfying for players, and what we settled on was a series of escalating events. Each one was opt-in for the players involved, and as the events went on, the actions slid more into Li-varili's overall desire for revenge.

This design felt well communicated, observing as someone from the outside the coven. We did see characters that turned away at various points, or rebounded back to Bloodtide Coven. I could also see the draw of continuing to receive praise until the end.

Agreeing with Falaine above on IC consequence. There's still room to play a redemption arc if that's what's desired.

I'd like to take a moment to share how we approached the Bloodtide Coven from an event design perspective.

When coming up with the concept for the Li-varili arc, something we knew we wanted to have from the very beginning was a method for players to assist her if they wanted. We discussed internally ways of accomplishing this in a way that would be satisfying for players, and what we settled on was a series of escalating events. Each one was opt-in for the players involved, and as the events went on, the actions slid more into Li-varili's overall desire for revenge.

A player might be comfortable helping awaken Sister Sea, for example, but pause at breaking Li-varili out of Lantra's healing mound with Drocilla. Someone else might be comfortable doing the latter, but not be comfortable sacrificing an innocent taurian boy on the altar of Li-varili's anger, along with a beloved nereid priestess. And still more players would be comfortable doing all those things, but hesitate at imprisoning all the Elder Gods in thousands of years of torment -- or only do so once they realized it was every god, not just the ones in the awakening, that Li-v chose to betray.

We expected players to betray Li-varili throughout the Bloodtide arc, and left doors open for people to become turncoats along the way, and to reward that behavior. We also were open to players staying loyal to Li-varili the entire time and being part of her swan song, and for Li-varili to give them special attention in those final moments. We had plans in place for both situations.

You'll notice Magnagora had different reactions to Li-varili than the other orgs, and this was also by design. We knew orgs like Serenwilde and Celest were going to be more firmly against Li-varili's actions due to their inherent roleplay, but Magnagora through Drocilla's ties to Li gave us an opportunity to "condone" betrayal in a way that players didn't feel they had to go against the org per se. Even when they realized Drocilla had been ultimately betrayed, Bloodtide members could take part through the end and more or less have enjoyed the entire thoroughline of the Year Arc. In essence, Mag would be a "safe haven" if no other org was in the endgame.

Something players often sigh about in the aftermath of a Year Arc is the sense that their actions throughout the arc did not ultimately matter, and that the events would have unfolded exactly the same way if they had not participated. We worked hard this year to give a sense that every player's actions did matter, and the result was a lot of optional high stakes actions on the villain's side that -- understandably -- would invite some criticism by many orgs and players in the game. Because Li-varili's actions were always meant to culminate in the destruction of a Seal, and invite the judgment of the other Elders. Something on this level storywise would have to invite judgment from players, too. We did our best to make everything for the Bloodtide Coven consensual and clear from start to finish.

After Ascension we are likely to write a few godblogs to further expand on this topic, but there is a difference between IC actions receiving IC consequences and IC actions inviting OOC hatred. If you ever feel the latter is the case and you are being harassed to the point of being pushed to leave the game, we invite you to ISSUE yourself.