Best Of

the spices thing definitely feels like a nerf to herbalism if you go the group route which is so much more convenient i don't want to go back.

All this talk about gmcp - does your average newbie on nexus even know what that is? Or am I just super noob? I hate right now how hard it is to get commodities for crafting because of aethertraders and every man and his dog jumping on board (as they should, the payout is very good for the effort). Competing in price is very difficult because there are plenty of very rich people who don't care to make profits, or are so kitted out they can undercut and make money anyway. Village comms are very sparse and so there's nothing for it if you're org is out or low on an a comm - this must surely hit newbies harder than people who hoard a glut needlessly.

i'd love to make tonics, but can never get enough fruit for more than a couple. Could we at least look at the comms going into aethergoop craftables? Why do they need comms? Why not make them just gold+goop as a sink right there? Why not take gold to break, rather than salt/sulfur/sugar, which has driven the price on these to ridiculous levels. Crucibles feel like the ultimate bandaid to a problem that really is barely holding on. Also on that, people who want to aethertrade are limited to only 3 trades, and that is super sad to be telling new people that if they want to make goop, those are their only options, with one in particular being most lucrative but also the most impossible to catch.

i feel like the economy will have further and longer lasting impact right now than adding defenses to a thing that i (and surely others) don't use or need?

If you're referring to defence-overhaul as just hooking things into the gmcp stuff, I absolutely do not think it is a big priority - it has very little impact on new players or player retention, as most people who are already coding are going to find ways to overcome the inconvenience. If it was something more along the lines of a deffer + def maintenance built into the game, that would be a different discussion.

Coraline said:

Jolanthe said: On the other hand, if I was back in Gaudiguch then I would miss the stuff I could make with Lorecraft - some of those potions were not even available in the plex until I started stocking them and slowly, steadily, competitors arose to undercut me. It was like a baseline had to appear again to get the momentum going at all.

This part got me wondering: what if we had an admin-shop of sorts at the Plex that sold everything at a higher price (but not so high like sugar is now), and this will make player shops try to undercut this shop to make profits. Maybe set the baseline for everything and making sure people get what they need to craft things as well as stop commodities from shooting up to insane prices. Just an idea, don't know how it would work practically.

As for my opinion about the economy (I voted economy in that poll), it seems like whenever any major economy changes are made, it's always the cooking commodities that suffer. I know it's not intentional, but it still makes me scared when admins announce that they are going to make economy changes (like oh no, are they gonna come for spices next? :P ).

I don't mind the idea of Trader Bob selling a little of everything now, and just keeping the price appropriately overhead. I think the biggest head scratcher on my Lorecraft adventure has been fire potion - nothing needed to make it was too scarce, nor was it terribly high up in the skill rankings, and there was also huge demand for it. It was really easy to produce en masse and turn good profit over when I could switch back to druidry - I think the bigger issue is not enough druid/wiccan players want to pick it up for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being that it's a pretty boring trade.

Also, hate to break it to you, but spices have already taken a soft hit. When you proc spices while harvesting herbs with the group/bulk syntax, you still get the same amount as if you were harvesting single herbs. So you can get literally thousands of herbs now and no more than twenty or so spices - it's just not noticeable right at the moment due to the glut of spice currently in game. Might be important to keep in mind with any potential spice-related discussion!

Me, learning they have already come for the spices:

Saran said:

•  At least for me, if I ever actually need lessons the trades I've effectively "opted out" of would be the first to be forgotten permanently which also means no more flexing into them if someone needs them.

Then that's on you. One of the things I miss most about being in Gaudiguch is having access to Elemental/Cosmic enchantment. I have no need for these and have effectively "opted out", as you say, but enchantment offers a lot of opportunity and potential - a lot more so than tinkering or brewmeister. On the other hand, if I was back in Gaudiguch then I would miss the stuff I could make with Lorecraft - some of those potions were not even available in the plex until I started stocking them and slowly, steadily, competitors arose to undercut me. It was like a baseline had to appear again to get the momentum going at all.

I learned forging before I bothered to learn any knighthood spec (which was easily put off for several IG years), and I didn't necessarily need to learn forging for myself either. Not everyone's going to do that, but I actually enjoy investing in the game in that capacity.

I would agree that trade artifacts just seem to raise the barrier for entry, though. It would be fine if prices were more fixed and static, but people tend to use their added production to just drive the price down lower.

This is further complicated by aethertrading/aethergoods encouraging comms to get gobbled up and commodity prices to keep bumping up as consumption outstrips village production. Food comms used to be a lot cheaper, and crucibles are really the only way to toggle things around to get adequate fruit in many situations. I heave a groan every time I hear about someone else looking for fruit to make more aetherpotions with - I hate aetherpotions so much now. Fruit is needed in the majority of cooking recipes. We don't need more uses for damned fruit, and anyone without crucibles to convert vegetables/etc into fruit is kind of hosed.

Ayisdra said:

Eritheyl said:

I could be in the minority here, but I haven't fielded a single complaint about defenses in my time. What are the issues with them, exactly?

Because most defenses don't have gmcp message, this makes it really hard for new players to create systems and what not to keep themselves alive. When affs went from affmessages to full gmcp messages, we saw a bit increase in newbies joining conflict because system building became all the much easier and didn't require to relay on someone else or to collect hundreds of lines. We saw a similar increase in players in general when AC became a thing. Defenses should likely do the same thing of lowering this barrier of entry.

I'd point out here that, players can code around the concerns with defenses where we can't really code around the issues with the economy.

I put fifty recipes through a calculator spreadsheet and had one come up that would not cost more to make than the lowest price readily available for the same category in the aetherplex, which with cooking particularly is also competing with people being really nice and just giving away food for free.
I haven't recently had to buy any food from memory, because by the time I'm hungry again someone has invariably given me free food or there were five people in a room so herofete was used.

Also, the economy is relevant to newbies, the question of what trades are good comes up for one and it is rather depressing on both sides to explain how such an investment is kinda a waste. 
Economic activities (including but not just limited to trades) also provide alternative methods for player engagement which can help with retention and depending on the direction it could provide alternate reasons for people who currently don't to stay logged in longer or more regularly which provide more players for newbies to engage with even if the newbies themselves don't personally get invested in the activities.

Ayisdra said:

 I for one don't want to see herbs selling for 1gp per, or potions selling for less than it costs to make them.

There is nothing stopping from this happening now, or from happening years ago, due to being allowed to classflex (and having more than one activate trade). And can be a thing as long as classflexing is a thing.

Yeah... that it can happen is an issue? That it's been possible for years is why people have been raising it among the issues with the economy for years. These are reasons to prioritise looking at the issue, it's root causes, and look for resolutions to them. 

Eritheyl said:

I for one don't want to see herbs selling for 1gp per, or potions selling for less than it costs to make them.

This confuses me, since I've seen a number of herbs getting more expensive - to the point where I'm inspired to go and harvest more for myself, but not necessarily to try to accumulate enough to resell.

Some items just feel too costly to bother with on any degree of scale. Needing enough rawtea to prepare greentea/blacktea/etc. takes a very long time, and they all draw from the same pool. All require 10 rawtea to make a single packet. If any reasonable amount is charged for the raw tea, then the finished teas suddenly become "too expensive". And malts? Forget it. It's impossible to make malts that are cheaper than the current supplies still dwindling from when presents/etc rendered them.

I think it might help to clarify and look at what is considered broken, and why.

Not trying to outright discredit you, but I personally feel like this issue isn't as big of one as you're making it seem. But as you agree with the sentiment that the economy is broken, I'm going to stand by my vote.